Featured Let’s take a closer look at the importance of forgiveness

Bob takes Scripture out of context every chance he can. Whether it be in Ezekiel 18, Matthew 18, 1Cor.6, 1Cor.7, he loves to quote these scriptures especially in defense of:
1. keeping the commandments of God--all of them.
2. demonstrating that one can lose their salvation and thus OSAS is false.

That is one of his main purposes.

On this thread he has been concentrating here in Ezekiel 18:
Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
--Bob believes that he has everyone over a barrel here for the "righteous man turns from his righteousness ...and dies" (or according to Bob loses his salvation).

In my view, and in H.A. Ironside's esteemed view the entire passage is speaking of temporal punishment and not spiritual punishment. Thus his entire argument is rendered moot. The context is rendered right from the beginning in the first three verses when a Hebrew idiom is introduced known commonly as a "generational curse." The Lord says plainly, "I am not going to listen to you anymore; your excuses have run out (especially that one)." Every man must pay for his own sin. We are accountable and responsible for the actions and sins we commit.
Now that is how I view it. I look at the context.

Others see it differently. Especially when they get down to the verse where Bob thinks he has one a victory. There is a case for a spiritual application here.
Robert Hawker, D.D. was an evangelical Anglican pastor in England that lived between 1753 and 1827. He wrote voluminously.
Here is what he says on this passage:

Notice again Ez.33:13,



Ezekiel 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

--The same sense here is what is written in chapter 18. Ezekiel does not contradict himself. "IF he trust in his OWN righteousness." That is he never had the righteousness of Christ, or God's righteousness to begin with. One cannot lose what he does not have. He was not saved.



Even if the passage has a spiritual application it is not talking about a saved person losing his salvation. The Bible never speaks of such a scenario.

 

BOB MUST undo and prove false, as lies the lord jesus Himself, as he repeatly stated to and for us that NONE that he saved EVER will get lost by Him, that he will bring to completetion ALL saved by Him...

ALL other verses can be disregarded, BOB must prove Jesus lied here to us!

 

You make it appear that OSAS can only survive via your dark cloud of false-dichotomies that appear to be of the form "reject the Bible teaching on forgiveness revoked or call Jesus a liar".

Fortunately - such dark-ages papal methods fell by the wayside a long time ago -- so now we get the Bible AND Jesus! It's just your man-made tradition that fades away.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You have been shown a number of Bible commentaries admitting to the obvious fact that Ezek 18 is in the context of salvation.

And the "Bible details" IN THE CHAPTER as listed - cannot be refuted - so simply "carefully avoid them".

How "instructive".

Actually in your case - I focus on vs 27 and 27 where the WICKED that turn from their murders.

27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

It is beyond all doubt that no such "oh well you are free to go " result was ever a reality for murderers in any civil court in Israel.

And we both know it.

So you simply "avoid that detail" and go on with your "it is all what we would expect in a civil court" failed argument that survives only by your tactic of repeatedly ignoring the text that refutes your tradition.

Step 1 - stop ducking vs 27 and 28 where it is obvious this cannot happen in any civil court known to Israel or mankind.

Step 2- your problem with vs 26 then looms large.

Which does not work in the case of vs 27 and 28.

27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

It is beyond all doubt that no such "oh well you are free to go " result was ever a reality for murderers in any civil court in Israel.

And we both know it.

Your argument fails at that point - so you "simply ignore the offending Bible detail".

How "instructive".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[FONT=&quot]Matthew Henry [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Even Matthew Henry who clings to OSAS no matter what the Text says admits this text is about salvation -- heaven or hell.[/FONT]

Verses 21-29
The wicked man would be saved, if he turned from his evil ways. The true penitent is a true believer. None of his former transgressions shall be mentioned unto him, but in the righteousness which he has done, as the fruit of faith and the effect of conversion, he shall surely live. The question is not whether the truly righteous ever become apostates. It is certain that many who for a time were thought to be righteous, do so, while Ezekiel 18:26, Ezekiel 18:27 speaks the fulness of pardoning mercy: when sin is forgiven, it is blotted out, it is remembered no more. In their righteousness they shall live; not for their righteousness, as if that were an atonement for their sins, but in their righteousness, which is one of the blessings purchased by the Mediator. What encouragement a repenting, returning sinner has to hope for pardon and life according to this promise! In Ezekiel 18:28 is the beginning and progress of repentance. True believers watch and pray, and continue to the end, and they are saved. In all our disputes with God, he is in the right, and we are in the wrong.

 

Adam Clarke - says Ezek 18 is about eternal salvation

Verse 4
All souls are mine - Equally so; I am the Father of the spirits of all flesh, and shall deal impartially with the whole.
The soul that sinneth, it shall die - None shall die for another‘s crimes, none shall be saved by another‘s righteousness. Here is the general judgment relative to the righteousness and unrighteousness of men, and the influence of one man‘s state on that of another; particularly in respect to their moral conduct.

Verse 20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die - Hitherto we have had to do with the simple cases or the righteous and the wicked; of him who lived and died a holy man, and of him who lived and died a wicked man. But there are two cases behind:
1.That of the wicked man, who repents and turns to God.
2.That of the righteous man, who backslides, and does not return to God by repentance. On both these cases God decides thus: -

Verse 21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins - And afterwards walk according to the character of the righteous already specified shall he find mercy, and be for ever saved? Yes.

Verse 22
[FONT=&quot]All his transgressions - [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Shall be so completely forgiven by God‘s mercy, that they shall not be even mentioned to him; and if he live and die in this recovered state, he shall live with God to all eternity. [/FONT]

 

DHK turns a blind eye to the Gospel in Ezek 18 -- EVEN in vs 27-28 --

27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

29 But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

.... 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”



here is what Ironsides says in his closing remarks for Ezek 18.

==========================================

"Therefore He pleaded, crying, “Why will ye die, O house of Israel?…Wherefore turn yourselves, and live.” Where there was response to this plea and true repentance and turning to God in faith, they would indeed be born again. " Ironsides.
http://www.studylight.org/com/isn/view.cgi?book=eze&chapter=018


Ironsides is determined not to find the gospel here - and yet finds it "anyway".

in Christ,

Bob

 

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2056362&postcount=121

If you think this is a refutation of this post

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2056362&postcount=121

It is not. It is far from it. You haven't even touched the basics. Go back and try again.

 

I point out that you are running away from the Ezek 18 detail in vs 27 and 28 that show this to be a Gospel scenario - impossible in any civil court of law.


i point out repeatedly that you are ducking the Bible detail that does not fit your story about civil courts.

You even quote this in your own post --


DHK turns a blind eye to the Gospel in Ezek 18 -- EVEN in vs 27-28 --

27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

29 But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

.... 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”


=======================

Then inexplicably you respond with a link to post 121 - that completely avoids the details I raised as if ignoring the point "more" will solve the problem of those Bible details that refute your assumptions in Ezek 18.

It is not working.


Then what is even WORSE for your view is that I pointed out that your OWN source Ironsides - has double-crossed you in Ezek 18 by admitting to this "detail".


"Therefore He pleaded, crying, “Why will ye die, O house of Israel?…Wherefore turn yourselves, and live.” Where there was response to this plea and true repentance and turning to God in faith, they would indeed be born again. " Ironsides.
http://www.studylight.org/com/isn/vi...ze&chapter=018


For which "again" your "answer" is to "ignore the detail".


in Christ,

Bob

 

I wasn't talking of a civil law scenario in that post. I quoted Hawker who had a different take on that verse.
Look at the latter part of his quote:

I also mentioned that the same truth is taught in Ezekiel 33:13:
Ezekiel 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
--Those that are called righteous, but are actually simply trusting in their own righteousness are not righteous at all, are they? They are like the Pharisees of the NT.

What else does the Bible say about this type of "righteousness"?
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
--This is what Ezekiel is referring to, not a loss of salvation.

You didn't read my post, obviously. I wasn't talking of civil law throughout that entire post.

Try again Bob.

 

Are you Jesus?

 

we have the Holy Spirit, as evidenced by having sound doctrines and practices, but you have not displayed in your postings that you "rightly divided the word of God!"

 

many of his stated doctrines come from the other One it would seem!

 

We start here -

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

And then get to the part where Ezek 18 shows the wicked being forgiven all murders etc - by simply turning to God in obedience. A Salvation concept not a civil-court principle.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Mat.18 is built on a series of hyperboles. You ignore the text.

Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
--This is the actual introduction. It is Jesus answer to Peter's question about forgiveness. 70 times 7 is something Peter can't fathom. Perhaps you can do the math, but can you imagine forgiving someone that many times in a day! Would you even count, or keep track? Peter certainly wouldn't. The number is an exaggeration meant to convey: "as many times as they offend you, forgive them."

There is no forgiveness revoked. It is a damnable heresy; a man-made doctrine; an SDA specialty.

Matthew 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
--This is another superlative. It is great amount such that Peter can't imagine. Today 10,000 talents is more than 10,000,000 (ten million) dollars. It is a great sum of money that most people can't really imagine. It is a known fact that a great many Lotto winners have gone bankrupt. They don't know what such an amount of money is, and what to do with it. They spend it foolishly and soon it has brought them ruin and devastation.

For example:

Again, Jesus was using exaggeration, numbers that could not be imagined by Peter.

Matthew 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
--Salvation is complete and full forgiveness of sins; unconditionally: past, present and future by the King Himself--Jesus Christ. The debt was completely paid.

Matthew 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
-- [FONT=&quot]This is a hypothetical situation as if it were saying “But if the same servant went out.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Realize that it is a parable. Parables do not fit each detail perfectly. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Parables are meant to teach central truths, not to make all details fit. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If this were not hypothetical and it was in actual fact the same servant then the first servant would not have been saved or forgiven. [/FONT]

Note the change in currency--one hundred pence, or in our currency between one and ten dollars--something we can understand. It is enough to buy a cup of coffee and maybe a donut.
This is really exaggerated.
1. A servant cannot throw a fellow servant in jail; he must go through the courts.
2. What court (or judge) is going to throw someone in jail for not paying back the price of a cup of coffee!! Is he insane!
3. Therefore no one would end up in jail for this paltry sum of money. Impossible. It is a great use of hyperbole.

Matthew 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
--This shows that the parable is not speaking of the same servant.
A true Christian is one who is both forgiven and forgiving. This guy is not the latter.

Matthew 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
--A hypothetical was put forth. Note, now he is called "O thou wicked servant." He doesn't stand in righteousness. He was never saved in the first place. One cannot lose what he first did not have.
The righteous will remain righteous and the wicked will remain wicked unless they first come to Christ.

Matthew 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
--Remember the context. He is speaking to Peter. God the Father puts a premium on forgiveness. He is telling Peter in very exaggerated terms the importance of forgiveness. He wants to impress this upon his heart. He has started right from the beginning (490 times) and has used hyperbole throughout the whole passage.
This is not a threat to Peter's salvation. It is an encouragement and admonition to have an attitude of forgiveness.

This teaching is given in two different places: once here, in the sermon on the Mount, and once in Luke. Both times he is speaking to his disciples. In the passage in Luke it is recorded, "His disciples came to him and said: Lord teach us to pray." And Jesus said, Pray after this manner:
Our Father who art in heaven...

Again, the disciples had forgiveness. Nothing would take that away; nothing would take away their salvation. The prayer is more adequately called "The Disciples' Prayer," for the true "Lord's Prayer" is given in John 17. Christ has given a model prayer here, not to be memorized and prayed repetitively--something he told them not to do, but rather that they should use the principles in this prayer as a model for their own prayers.

The disciples sins were already forgiven as far as their salvation were concerned. The teaching has nothing to do with salvation.
If I am angry with my brother, and he is angry with me, and I don't forgive him, then why should the Lord forgive me? I am out of fellowship with God as long as I harbor anger in my heart and there is sin in my life. Until I confess my sin--all of it--the Lord will not forgive me. It is that easy. It has nothing to do with salvation.

The first part of the chapter deals with what is called a generational curse.
The Lord says that one cannot use generational curses for an excuse for sin. They are responsible for their own sins. Then a dialogue takes place between Israel and the Lord about various scenarios, and each time the Lord demonstrates how they are responsible for their various sins.

The same principle is in the NT.
"For we shall all given an account before God."
We are responsible for our own sins, not for anyone else's.

Ezekiel does make a plea for national repentance near the end of the chapter. The verse in question is similar to Ezek.33:13

Ezekiel 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
--Some of them thought themselves to be righteous. They were not. They stood in their own self-rightness. They would die in their wickedness and sin if they didn't repent. The other group were obviously wicked. They too would died in their wickedness and sin. It was a call for all them to repent: a national call to repentance.

 

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Indeed and in Matt 18:35 Jesus makes the case OUTSIDE the parable so devastating to OSAS.

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Jesus himself is making the application OUTSIDE the parable. The lesson being - that those FULLY Forgiven ALL - are to be grateful for that fact and do likewise to their brother who transgresses against them. But more to the point for OSAS - just does not just apply the positive force - but here He applies the negative saying "My Father will DO THE SAME to you IF..." thus the "forgiveness revoked" element is brought outside the parable by Christ Himself and applied to the saints.


And it is consistent with what He taught OUTSIDE all parable in Matt 6.[/FONT]

Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

But man-made tradition responds in true dark ages papal fashion something like this..

No Pope could have contradicted the scripture better.

The text specifically points to forgiveness revoked.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]You simply call it heresy to "notice".[/FONT][FONT=&quot]


[/FONT]

"So shall my Father do TO EACH ONE OF YOU".

You then water down the terms of scripture calling Christ's statement an 'exaggeration"!!!

"SO SHALL" is what troubles you because it is a reference back to the very detail in the story that OSAS does not survive.

You deny it - and accuse Christ Himself of "exaggeration" for appealing to a detail that OSAS does not survive - and then applying it to the saints - fully forgiven.

The very same point made in Matt 6 -- Is Jesus also exaggerating the Lord's Prayer -- and...err..ummm "anything He says" that contradicts OSAS? Is that your rule for exegesis???

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective readers.

Well not if you delete it and accuse Christ of exaggeration!!

How "instructive".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Matthew 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you (Peter), if you (Peter) from your heart (Peter and the other apostles) forgive not everyone that offends them their trespasses.

He is addressing Peter specifically, and the disciples in general.

Even in a wider context yet, he also said:
Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
--He has been talking about this for sometime now. Forgive your brother his trespass. Be reconciled to him.

 

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Notice that the SAME point is made in BOTH Matt 18:35 AND in Matt 6:15... Hint: This is NO exaggeration!

You cannot use the straw-rule of the form "anything Christ says that contradicts the man-made tradition of OSAS must be cast down to the level of "mere exaggeration"." as if it were Bible exegesis.

That is not exegesis at all.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The Lord is speaking particularly to Peter and in general to his apostles. Is he that unloving that he threatens Peter with eternal torment? I don't think so.
The King gives full and complete forgiveness in the first half of the parable--to the servant who stands in His righteousness.
The King condemns "the wicked servant" (obviously a different servant) to that one who stands not in righteousness but in his own wickedness.
No one lost his salvation. There are two distinct parts to this parable--something you don't get.

Again Jesus is speaking to his apostles.
The teaching is forgiveness of others. It is not speaking of salvation. It is speaking of fellowship with God. But you have your blinders on and can't see that. Is the Lord threatening his apostles with eternal separation? Hardly!!!

And the blind lead the blind and continue to post their heresy.