Featured Let’s take a closer look at the importance of forgiveness

You are as bad as the rest of the SDA cult members. Baptists are not legalists. One of our foundations is Christian liberty and priesthood. You should read Hebrews sometime. In the past decades, there were Baptists that were more worried about dancing, drinking and lottery tickets than the Gospel, but that infection has been battled and those who believe that are dying off rapidly.

God does forgive, and guides the life of every Christian. Salvation and faith are a gift of God. Your interpretation of Scripture is more in line with the Pharisee mindset than the great majority of Baptists.

 

Yes it is that simple. The Lord has told us what the attitude of your heart is:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

 

Indeed - God knows the heart and "He is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance".

And He gives us the "ministry of reconciliation" such that as Paul says in 2Cor 5 "We BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God"

And yet "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

In Matt 7 we have "by their fruits you shall know them" and "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but rather he who DOES the Will of My Father".

In 1Cor 6 we have this
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

All the name-calling, vitriol and acrimony in the world will not silence the Word of God when it comes to the warnings to those who suppose themselves rich and increased with good and in need of nothing.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Not each time, Bob, you said.
This is why eternal security is true and whatever you believe that is so undefinable but against eternal security is wrong. Christ has forgiven all my sins: past, present and future. I don't have to worry about that any longer. I don't have to count my sins: not the time that has passed nor the number of sins I have committed. In this respect you have more in common with the RCC that believe they should go to confession at least once a week. But my sins are forgiven forever more--as far as salvation is concerned. My salvation will never be lost.

 

I was asked for specific examples of salvation lost - forgiveness revoked.


Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Matt 6
[/FONT]
14 For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


====================


But then as you pointed out above - you consider this to be Catholicism - or else you want to know how often you can devote yourself to war against God's instruction and still not be lost.


Your response is totally devoid of "Sola scriptura" testing of doctrine.
What Catholic could not use your same "any ol excuse will do" to avoid something like the 2nd commandment?

Why open up such a can of worms as if you thought it had sola-scriptura test-of-tradition validity?


in Christ,


Bob

 

Ezekiel 18 has NOTHING to say towards salvation, as that whole passage was how to do captial punishment under the OT Law!

 

"Again" you ignore every single detail in the post, in the text, in the discussion and reach for "papal pronouncement" hoping all the Bible details listed will be ignored apparently.

Why keep doing that?

The dark ages ended.

Your methods have been tried before.

========================================= details being ignored



1. In Ezek 18 the scenario for sins that result in death includes not paying back a pledge, lending money at interest, oppressing the poor, failure to follow all of God's commandments in scripture.

These are sins for which Israel had no death penalty.

Yet in Ezek 18 there are sins for which the wicked would die.

This is clearly in the context of salvation and cannot be restricted to civil penalties existing in Ezekiel's day.

2. In Ezek 18 the one who murders is considered righteous if he turns and decides to follow God's commandments. There was no allowance for such a thing in the civil laws of the nation.

This is clearly in the context of salvation and cannot be restricted to civil penalties existing in Ezekiel's day.

3. In Ezek 18 the wicked are condemned and die - the Righteous do not. Yet Ezek is writing to the nation in rebellion whose leaders, judges, courts, kings were corrupt. They were in fact mistreating the righteous. The wicked were in government.

This is clearly in the context of salvation and cannot be restricted to civil penalties existing in Ezekiel's day.

in Christ,

Bob

 

It is a passage that teaches personal accountability. Paul also expounds on the same theme. We are accountable for the sins we commit. And, no, not all of them have the death penalty, but all of them do have a penalty of some sort. The wicked will be punished; they will and must take responsibility for their own sins.

They were trying to blame their parents with what is commonly called a "generational curse." The Lord will not let them get away with that. They must take responsibility; they must be accountable, each one for their own sins. That is true today; it was true back then.

That is true, and there are some sins for which they would not die but be punished according to the law. Each one must be accountable for their own sins.

No, it clearly isn't. However if a wicked man dies without repentance it is obvious that eternal damnation will be upon him. But that is not the main subject here.

Moses murdered; David murdered. Ezekiel was calling them back to repentance. He was giving them another chance. If they repented they would not face the death penalty. If not, they would die--both physically and eternally.

The primary context is accountability. Every person must give account for what he has done.

And God was calling them to account for themselves. It wasn't just the government. In fact you have it wrong.
There is a grandfather, father and son presented.
We have them all wicked and then we have them all righteous.
We have all of these hypothetical scenarios presented before us.
It is not the government but the nation as a whole that comes before God.
The prophet is speaking to God through the prophet Ezekiel who acts as a spokesman for God. There is no government in view.

This is about accountability and responsibility. If one does not account for his sins and repent he will die in his sins. And it is painfully obvious what happens to one who dies in their sins.

Here are some other things for you to consider:

http://www.studylight.org/com/isn/view.cgi?book=eze&chapter=018



H.A. Ironside does a good job expounding this passage. You ought to read his sermon.

 

I find it "instructive" that Ezek 18 agrees so perfectly with Christ's instruction in Matt 18 and in Matt 6.

========================

I was asked for specific examples of salvation lost - forgiveness revoked.


Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Matt 6
[/FONT]
14 For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

 

1. In Ezek 18 the scenario for sins that result in death includes not paying back a pledge, lending money at interest, oppressing the poor, failure to follow all of God's commandments in scripture.

These are sins for which Israel had no death penalty.

Yet in Ezek 18 there are sins for which the wicked would die.

This is clearly in the context of salvation and cannot be restricted to civil penalties existing in Ezekiel's day.

2. In Ezek 18 the one who murders is considered righteous if he turns and decides to follow God's commandments. There was no allowance for such a thing in the civil laws of the nation.

This is clearly in the context of salvation and cannot be restricted to civil penalties existing in Ezekiel's day.

3. In Ezek 18 the wicked are condemned and die - the Righteous do not. Yet Ezek is writing to the nation in rebellion whose leaders, judges, courts, kings were corrupt. They were in fact mistreating the righteous. The wicked were in government.

This is clearly in the context of salvation and cannot be restricted to civil penalties existing in Ezekiel's day.

Indeed - "for we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ - to given an account for the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil" 2Cor 5:10

[FONT=&quot]
Rom 2:13-16 "It is NOT the hearers of the law that are just before God - but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE justiFIED ... on the day when according to my Gospel God will Judge"[/FONT]


We may actually have THREE sentences on this thread where we agree.

whahoo!! I will take it!

Where in Ezek 18 do you find even one sin not having the death penalty for the wicked?

in Christ,

Bob

 

Yes indeed. In the lake of fire.

No sin results in "purgatory and then heaven" -- as it turns out. (As much as our Catholic friends have supposed such a thing).

I agree.

In Ezek 18 all sin results in death.

In Ezek 18 even murder is forgiven if the person chooses to be kind and follow the Lord. Not possible in any civil system known to Ezekiel - but possible only in the GOSPEL.

A scenario never mentioned in Ezek 18 because in Ezek 18 God is drawing them to the much larger issue of salvation vs damnation. Even a small sin will get the wicked into the Lake of Fire.

Thus NO sin is mentioned in Ezek 18 that does not result in death - not even the sin of "Charging interest on a loan" - strictly forbidden the Jews - by God Himself.

A "sin" before God but not a "crime" in Israel punishable by death. No not even in Ezekiel's day.


in Christ,

Bob

 

A clear statement on the Gospel -- since in any civil court known to mankind there is no such thing as having your life spared - no matter how far down the path of evil you have gone.

It is a statement that only works in the context of the Gospel -- not civil courts.

In a civil court - there is no such thing as executing all people whom God regards as sinners, or lost. Only those guilty of the most serious crimes would be killed. Yet in Ezek 18 the wicked "charge interest" and are killed for it.

Not a civil penalty at all.


in Christ,

Bob

 

Ironsides makes this statement - but fails to comment on how this could ever be used for murderers in a civil court of law in Israel --

================================

“But if the wicked turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all My statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. None of his transgressions that he hath committed shall be remembered against him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he hath done shall be remembered: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die”-vers. 21-24.


In order that none may misunderstand, God, as it were, repeats Himself in a most clear and definite manner. Painstakingly He reiterates what has been set forth already, that none may despair, no matter how far from Him they have wandered. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather desires that everyone should return from his evil way and so find the path of life.

=============================

Obviously the "details" listed above were never part of any civil court system known to mankind - they only work in the Gospel.

Ironsides comments that these details are there to make sure no one misunderstand - and they are the "details" that point to the Gospel.

Fitting perfectly with the teaching of Christ in Matt 18, and Matt 6.

in Christ,

Bob

 

While we disagree in other areas, we are in agreement here. Ezekiel 18 is absolutely speaking of eternal damnation or salvation, but you are never going to get DHK to see this, I have been through this many times with him.

But I do believe you have misunderstood verse 24;

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

You interpret this as a man who was living sinless turning from his righteousness and losing salvation. No man of age lives sinless.

But if you understand verse 20, then you can understand verse 24. Verse 20 tells us that the son shall not bear the sin of his father. So all men come into the world without sin, just as Ecc 7:29 says.

All men when they mature and understand right from wrong WILL sin. This is what verse 24 is saying. His previous righteousness is forgotten, and now he shall die IN his trespasses he has sinned IN THEM shall he die.

But....

If you return to verse 21 and 22 it shows if a sinner repents and turn from his sin and trusts in God, all his sins will be forgotten.

The scriptures are clear that men are and always were saved by faith, not works.

In Romans, Paul speaks of faith without works, this is what justifies a man before God.

In James, it is speaking of being justified before MEN, not God.

Note in Romans 4 that Paul is speaking of Abraham when he simply believed God's promise in Gen 15;

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

No works here, God simply showed Abraham the stars and told him his seed would be impossible to number like the stars. Abraham simply believed God, and this is when righteousness (before God) was imputed to him.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This is when Abraham was saved, this is when he was imputed righteous before God without works.

James speaks of when Abraham was going to kill Isaac in obedience to God, this occurred many years later, perhaps 30 years later.

This was Abraham being justified in the sight of men, demonstrating his faith.

This is what people confuse, James is not speaking of when Abraham was saved.

 

The text about the rich having a difficult time "entering the kingdom of heaven" is instructive.

It does not say "it is harder for a rich man to accept the Gospel than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle".

Rather it is the Matt 18 problem of "forgiveness revoked" and the Romans 11 problem "you should fear... you stand only by your faith.. if He did not spare them neither will He spare you".

It is the "press forward forgetting those things which are behind" Phil 3 counting all of our loss as garbage - reaching forward for what lies ahead. "I do ALL things for the sake of the Gospel that I may be a fellow partaker of it... I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified". 1Cor 9.

 

c
While we disagree in other areas, we are in agreement here. Ezekiel 18 is absolutely speaking of eternal damnation or salvation, but you are never going to get DHK to see this, I have been through this many times with him.[/quote]

He has an a-priori bias that may be challenged by texts like Matt 18 and Ezek 18. In fact the entire way we got into the Ezek 18 discussion was starting in Matt 18 - DHK said this was "new doctrine" -- I was simply pointing out that it is the same as in Matt 6 and in Ezek 18.

Well it wont be the first time someone here has found occassion to differ with me on some point of view I have expressed.:laugh:

Actually I never say that in any of my posts.

I interpret this as a man who turns from following a path of obedience - and decide to cross over and live in sin - though probably still supposing himself to be accepted by God.

I never claim that the moment a saint commits a sin - that Ezek 18 or Matt 18 says they are lost.

Look high and low for such a statement from me - you won't find it.

Though a righteous man fall 7 times the Lord will raise him up.

And yet both Matt 18 and Ezek 18 point to a limit for that - at some point the man crosses over - if they begin to embrace sin as their home turf. Notice that in Matt 18 the ungrateful fully-forgiven servant does not simply "forget to forgive" but rather is entrenched in an unforgiving spirit - not moved by entreaty - not moved though his fellow slave and all he has is cast into prison. Not even moved by the disgust and dismay of his fellow servants.

in Christ,

Bob

 

In Romans 3 and in Romans 5:1 Paul speaks of the justification "past" that is when our salvation status changes - it is when the lost person comes to God - apart from works, by faith in Christ,

In Romans 2 and in James 2 - we are talking about a kind of justification where the salvation state is not changed. It is not the justification of the lost sinner - but the justification of the saved saint - via the objective evaluation "by their fruits you shall know them" Matt 7.

And as Daniel 7 points to that future day when "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

They were already saints before judgment is passed in favor of them.

In that chapter you have a great judgment scene - the books are opened , the court sits - the saints have judgment passed in their favor

Or whoever is there in that audience of Daniel 7's "myriads and myriads" - probably not a bunch of humans IMHO - more like Angels.

All true.

One Gospel Gal 1:6-11

The Gospel preached to Abraham Gal 3:7

Abraham believed and was saved - not as an act of works.

Salvation works the same way in every age.

We are closer on this than you may have thought at first.

in Christ,

Bob

 

It's a meaningless concept. I have known many people who believe as you do, and NONE of them can EVER say when a man loses his salvation, NONE.

They also seem sure of themselves and always in doubt of others.

But even if you were to tell me a person could commit a certain number of sins, or a certain kind of sin, or commit sin for a certain amount of time, I would not believe this view.

First of all, that is works.

I believe we are born again, our spirit is literally joined or fused to the Holy Spirit and we are a new creation. (1 Cor 6:17)

Just like you are a fusion of your mother and father, but you are not them. You are a new creation, you are a new individual, you are Bob.

Likewise, when our spirit is washed clean and joined to the Holy Spirit we become a new creation. We are not our old man, and we are not God, but we share or partake of the divine nature.

We are literally joined or fused to the Holy Spirit who cannot fall away in unbelief, so we are unable to fall away. (1 Jhn 3:19)