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Featured Lewis on Atonement theories

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, May 12, 2022.

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  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    HOW did Jesus become our sin bearer, and if he is such, what would he have to experience being seen by the father now as the sin bearer representing his own before Him now?
     
    #21 JesusFan, May 13, 2022
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Who cares? It is what is stated in the text of Scripture. That is my point. We differ because how we handle Scripture.
     
    #22 JonC, May 13, 2022
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  3. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Scriptures teach that Jesus died in the stead.place of us!
     
    #23 JesusFan, May 13, 2022
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The same way I can say the theory of evolution is not biblical and wrong.
     
    #24 JonC, May 13, 2022
  5. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Who cares about Pauline Justification is really what you are saying here!
     
    #25 JesusFan, May 13, 2022
  6. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    You can use evidence and proof to back that claim up, but cannot use scripture to defeat Psa!
     
    #26 JesusFan, May 13, 2022
    Last edited: May 13, 2022
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is what I mean. You believe that is what Scripture teaches. But that is not what the text of Scripture states. I believe "what is written", you believe what you think is taught.
     
    #27 JonC, May 13, 2022
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. What I am saying is you do not understand Pauline Justification. This is evident as you hold it apart from Scripture.

    Paul never writes that Jesus died instead of us dying. Instead Paul writes that Christ died for us, for our sins, and we must die with Him.
     
    #28 JonC, May 13, 2022
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    @JonC
    Please give the Biblical Atonement a Biblical discriptive name, but merely denying what is understood to be it's Biblical truth to be not .PSA comes across you being wrong.
     
    #29 37818, May 13, 2022
    Last edited: May 13, 2022
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The Greek anti means against or instead of.
    Matthew 20:28, ". . . Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life{soul} a ransom for many. . . ." [Ezekiel 18:4, Isaiah 53:12.]
     
    #30 37818, May 13, 2022
  11. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    No, I believe that the biblical model of Pauline Justification is the view that Jesus actually died in our stead, and had to endure exactly what we would do if we still had to be judged for our own sins!
     
    #31 JesusFan, May 13, 2022
  12. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    No, you refuse to accept that in Jesus, God the father judged and treated him exactly as all lost sinners will be!
     
    #32 JesusFan, May 13, 2022
  13. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was our sin bearer, not our example!
     
    #33 JesusFan, May 13, 2022
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not understand what you mean.

    If I call my view Biblical Atonement, that does not explain my view.

    But if I say "classic view" people understand it is not the "Latin view". Or if I call it Victorious Christ it shows a focus (just like Penal Substitution Theory focuses on wrath).

    I call these views what they are called. The Latin view (Satisfaction theory, Substitution Theory, Penal Substitution Theory), the Classic view (Ransom theory, Recapitulation, Moral Influence Theory, etc.).
     
    #34 JonC, May 13, 2022
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Wrong. Jesus is our sin bearer AND our example.

    Philippians 2:5–11 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
    6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
    7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
    8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
    9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
    10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
     
    #35 JonC, May 13, 2022
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I accept what is written in God's Word.

    Provide a passage I have rejected.

    Example -. You posted that Christ is not our example. This is a rejection of Philippians 2:5–11.
     
    #36 JonC, May 13, 2022
  17. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    was Jesus judged by God the father exactly in the same fashion that he will judge all lost sinners die to them still having to bear their own sins?
     
    #37 JesusFan, May 13, 2022
  18. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    You keep saying that you accept all that is written, all here do that, its just we cannot use our 'super spiritual gift" to be able to state that one view is totally wrong or right!
     
    #38 JesusFan, May 13, 2022
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, of course not. That is not even close to Christian doctrine.
     
    #39 JonC, May 13, 2022
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  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You did that to me. Without using any Scripture you determined my view was wrong.

    The standard, however, is not human opinion but Scripture. God's Word ("what is written") is the test of doctrine.

    The Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement fails that test.
     
    #40 JonC, May 13, 2022
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