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LGBT theological positions

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by questdriven, Jun 11, 2019.

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  1. questdriven

    questdriven Well-Known Member

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    Here are three theological positions on homosexuality as defined by what was formerly known as the Gay Christian Network:
    Side A: fully affirming

    Side B: takes the traditional Christan sexual ethic, believes same sex attracted individuals are called to lifelong celibacy and singleness. There used to be a long essay on GCN by someone with this testimony

    Side X: also known as ex-gays, they seek to be straight, and this side is associated with conversion therapy. GCN does not encourage this side and considers it harmful because of the ties to conversion therapy

    My experience is that outside of GCN, anything that isn't side A is still largely shunned and looked down on by the LGBT community. Side B'ers are accused of having internalized homophobia.

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  2. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    I think we need to make it clear that being against homosexuality isn't "homophobic." Holding to the view that homosexuality, which includes the homosexual desires that prompt the lifestyle, is sinful doesn't mean that we hate those who are trapped in that lifestyle.

    It makes it hard to have a dialogue when we are demonized as haters for simply holding to the Christian/biblical view that homosexuality is sinful. It has to be more than, "either you affirm the homosexual lifestyle, or you are homophobic."

    It has become mainstream in our culture to attack "phobic" to everything we will not tolerate any criticism of. It's a way of shutting down conversations and honest, valid criticism.
     
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  3. questdriven

    questdriven Well-Known Member

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    The word homophobe was made to describe people who view it as sin. So I've given up on arguing that point.
    I do wish they'd have a bit more sympathy (for lack of better word) for where non affirming and/or side B Christians are; we can change our behavior towards them for the better and become more compassionate towards them, but we cannot change our view of the scriptures and still feel we are being intellectually honest.

    I'm active in LGBT spaces so I've asked questions about this kind of stuff. For them they have a hard time separating a philosophy where people who held it have hurt them, disowned them, thrown them out of the house, from the action. Some even have PTSD from the way they have been treated by those who are supposed to love them. They've also explained that the fact that many or most who believe that same sex sex is sin will also support taking their rights away also doesn't exactly inspire warm feelings.
    In a way I understand. I've pretty much always been side B and never struggled with feeling like people hated me for my sexuality and never feared being beaten on the streets and whatnot like they have, so there are perspectives there that are going to be harder for me to grasp, if not impossible.

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  4. questdriven

    questdriven Well-Known Member

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    Basically I think side B, celibate gay Christians are the closest chance we have at witnessing to the community. Side X is very starkly rejected by the LGBT community (and by side B'ers), and for good reason imo. As I said in the OP, they don't like side B either, or anything that isn't 100% affirming, but it's still better.

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  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    If being against the sin of homosexuality is homophobic then being against sin of adultery would be heterophobic.

    In a very real sense it is true indeed but not because I am in my home trembling in fear of homosexuals but because of the spiritual law of sewing and reaping and the consequences against individuals, an offending local church or society in general for committing ANY sin of porneia.

    Also and apart from sewing/reaping - retribution from God there is the natural law of unintended consequences such as a myriad of STD's, AIDS, HIV, etc...

     
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  6. Acts2.21

    Acts2.21 Member

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    Homosexuality, Transgender, and whatever other evils the devil is throwing out there, are all demonically sinful, and an abomination before the Holy God of the Bible. Regardless of what even some so-called "churches", like the church of England, where I live, might do in trying to accommodate these evil life-styles, they are to be strongly spoken out against, but with the love of the Lord, and a genuine desire to see lost souls saved from certain hell.

    Very sadly, the rise of these evils in our world, is mainly the product of a very weak church, that hardly ever preaches the True Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, and compromises in too many places, to try to "win" some to their warped idea of what a Christian should be. The devil is even using so-called "evangelicals" to remove the Biblical necessity of repentance prior to a sinner being saved, and teach that all one has to do is simply "believe"! Even John MacArthur has a tract for witnessing that does not include repentance in the prayer to become a Christian.
     
  7. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    No, it is a demonization tactic. It is used primarily against Christians. For some reason, I don't see articles or anyone on TV using the term "homophobic" to describe Islam, which routinely murders homosexuals in Islamic countries, just like I don't see gay couples demanding Islamic bakeries to make gay wedding cakes. It's only Christians who are attacked by the gay community on that issue. They never pick that fight with Muslims.

    "Phobic" is a tactic to shut down any and call criticism of whatever it is that liberals want to promote.

    I think there are plenty of excuses they could make, but I bet they don't do the same thing in other contexts. I bet they are able to make those kinds of distinctions when it comes to other issues. It is quite easy for adults to distinguish between genuine hate of a person vs. a disagreement with a particular lifestyle choice. It's just too easy to demonize someone as a "hater" as an all-purpose weapon to shut down their criticism of the gay lifestyle.

    There are no such things as "gay rights." There are no such thing as hetero-sexual rights, either. Gay citizens of the US enjoy the same rights that I do, and those rights are enshrined in our Constitution. Gay people are not a minority and no one deserves minority status on the basis of how they have sex. We have gay people in every walk of life and the ones I have seen function just fine. I oppose any kind of special rights for pay people, and I certainly oppose any attempt to make mythical "gay rights" civil rights issue. It is a slap in the face to real minorities who suffered far more than gay people have in the struggle for their civil rights.

    We live in a culture today that celebrates the LGBTQ community. The media and the entertainment industry and every sphere of American athletics from MLB, to the NFL to the NBA and others are very accepting and give accolades to performers and athletes who declare themselves as gay. So they needn't over-play the victim/persecution card.

    There are always going to be pockets of people who persecute others. But they are not the majority.

    I was bullied a lot in school during my middle school and high school years. I was kind of a nerd and I was an easy target. I was beat up and ridiculed, called all kinds of cruel names, had to sit alone in the lunch room, and stuff like that. Kids were always harassing my family with prank calls at home. I know what it is like to be on the receiving end of cruelty. I didn't go to any of the high school homecomings, I didn't go to my senior prom. It was that bad. I didn't date at all through those years. Girls wanted nothing to do with me. I just learned out to soldier on. I never turned gay and never suffered any lasting trauma.

    I turned out okay. I didn't lay in the corner in a fetal position or suffer from PTSD. So, I always wonder about all of these people who can't seem to move on. And given how much love our culture bends over backwards to give to homosexuals, I doubt the severity of what they claim about how much persecution they receive.
     
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  8. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    We need to stop talking about hetero and homo sexuality. It's sodomy, and same sex attraction is no more a hindrance to a good marriage (real marriage, man and woman) and a fulfilling physical relationship than is the attraction a married guy may feel for the 25-year-old hottie next door.

    Against Heterosexuality | Michael W. Hannon
     
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  9. questdriven

    questdriven Well-Known Member

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    I'd recommend talking to gay people about their lives, especially older ones, really listen without the need for interjecting your two cents.
    Just recently a lesbian couple was beaten on a subway. I have a gay friend who was homeless and beaten up multiple times on the streets for his sexuality. He was also fired from a manager position at Chick-fil-A once they found out he was gay. They have also faced discrimination and violence from police. They also face corrective rape--people trying to rape them straight.

    PTSD is a serious mental health condition and frankly it is ignorant to say that they "just need to get over it". You wouldn't say that to a rape victim, you wouldn't say that to a solider coming back from war. Please don't say that to anyone who has a serious diagnosed mental health issue.

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  10. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    I know lots of gay people. I have worked around them. I know more about them than you think. I have been on the receiving end of their hatred for not accepting their lifestyle as normal and "Christian." I have been subjected to their hatred of anyone who doesn't think that you can be practicing homosexual and be an authentic Christian or be in the ministry.

    These are not poor shrinking violets who are so traumatized that they can't function in the real world. They are fed a lot of trash from the gay community and most of them were not kicked out of their homes. They left their homes when their parents would not accept their lifestyle.

    I have gotten an earful from them, and I don't need any lectures from you on the matter.

    I have also heard such stories, only to find they were either complete fabrications, or exaggerated claims when you get the other side of the story.

    I have been around enough of them long enough to be skeptical of the PTSD claims.

     
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  11. questdriven

    questdriven Well-Known Member

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    Sigh. You don't know someone's diagnosis or what they have gone through in terms of mental illness. As someone who is recovering from mental illness (SAD and OCD in my case), please have some compassion towards that. Some are genetically inclined towards mental illness--you can get PTSD from something as simple as bullying or a car crash.

    And as someone who grew up in a fundamentalist home, my mom emotionally abused me over me leaving the King James only doctrine and treated me as if I were going to go off the deep end in rebellion. I can only imagine how she would react if she were to learn I was same sex attracted.
    If someone has parents like that, I wouldn't blame them for leaving. I would have if I had had that option.
    It took me years to come to terms with my mother, I worked on forgiving her while I was in therapy for my mental illnesses.

    Please have some compassion and try to meet them halfway. Whether you think they have a reason to be or not, you are dealing with people who are hurting.

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  12. questdriven

    questdriven Well-Known Member

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  13. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    The ones I have worked around and spoken to were anything but mentally ill and did not have PTSD. In fact, the gay lifestyle is more likely to cause mental disorders than not.

    The gay community is actually quite militant and is pushing for their lifestyle to be accepted as normal and it is now giving more courage to pedophiles to push for their lifestyle to be considered a "sexual orientation."

    LGBTQ community is so powerful that not even conservative media will condemn the agenda. For every one gay person who has been persecuted, there are many, many more who are the persecutors, who are pushing to get their lifestyle normalized and embraced by the Church. In fact, they are pushing the equality act that would make it a crime for churches to refuse to hire a gay man as a pastor.

    I am not lacking in compassion, but I am also not the kind of person who can be emotionally manipulated. I have been on the receiving end of bullying and hate. I know what that is like, so I don't think gay people should be mistreated, or denied a job or housing for being gay. I also know enough to know that the gay community is a radical, anti-Christian community and is doing their best to force us to accept their lifestyle upon penalty of prosecution and imprisonment.
     
  14. questdriven

    questdriven Well-Known Member

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    Mentally ill people aren't necessarily obvious, especially if they are in treatment and said treatment is working. Some hold jobs just fine, but keep their struggles to themselves. I'm in a peer support group for mentally ill people, and most of these people I would never guess have a mental health diagnosis of it weren't a group where we are open about that kind of thing. I have social anxiety, but most people wouldn't know that about me unless I were to talk about the symptoms I experience. Ditto to my OCD.

    At any rate, I suppose we'll just continue to have vastly different perspectives on this. Believe me, LGBT people haven't taken kindly to my personal views, and I holda libertarian stance that says they can do as they like and the law shouldn't be able to stop them. But I have taken time to go into specifically LGBT spaces where they are more open with each other and have seen what they talk about among others like them.

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  15. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    A number of those incidents are listed without any kind of context. People are murdered for a variety of reasons and frankly, being a murder victim that happens to be an LGBT person doesn't necessarily mean that person was murdered for that reason. It doesn't necessarily mean that they were targeted for that reason. Those reports simply lead a person to make that assumption. We are supposed to simply believe that since a murder victims was gay, he was murdered for that reason.

    It is the case that some are targeted and murdered for being gay, but it is not the case that every gay person who has been the victim of murder was murdered simply for being gay. There could be and many times are, other reasons. And there is also the assumption that they were murdered by people who were not gay, as if gay people have never murdered other gay people.
     
  16. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    It's been acknowledged by a prominent Southern Baptist scholar. He's quoted in this article admitting:

    New Wave of Gay Acceptance

    "We’ve...practiced what can only be described as a form of homophobia"

    “We’ve lied about the nature of homosexuality....We’ve used the ‘choice’ language when it is clear that sexual orientation is a deep inner struggle and not merely a matter of choice.”
     
  17. questdriven

    questdriven Well-Known Member

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    I've known too many gay people who say they have begged God to take away their SSA, to believe feeling SSA is a choice. Supposedly some have successfully changed their orientation, but side B people still deal with SSA. They just don't act on it.

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  18. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, a liberal, gay "scholar." The use of "phobia" is really nothing more than a tactic to shut down criticism of the homosexual lifestyle or anything else that liberals hold dear.
     
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  19. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    Same sex attraction is a sin and it is a spiritual stronghold that Jesus can deliver a person from. There is no such thing as a sexual orientation. Bible knows nothing of "sexual orientations."
     
  20. questdriven

    questdriven Well-Known Member

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    I'll agree to disagree

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