Abraham's gospel was the gospel of Jesus Christ:
Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him.
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.
Gal 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Heb 6:13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself,
Abraham was not given salvation because of a general knowledge of God. Abraham was given a direct promise of the messiah. Even all the OT saints looked forward to the coming of the Messiah. We look back at the Messiah's coming. OT Saints looked forward. This is not in line with what you have said. No one has ever nor ever will be saved with a general knowledge of God outside of Christ. That is out right heresy.
Adam and Eve who literally existed were given knowledge of the coming Messiah. Genesis 3:15 Everyone has always understood that salvation was only through the blood of the Messiah. Such interpretations are quite recent and fails to even be liberal. Lower than a snakes belly it is.
Liberalism
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Revmitchell, Mar 25, 2009.
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I pointed out a few posts ago that if someone receives and embraces the light they have, that God will give them more revelation of Himself... to the point of right relationship (that is, a saving relationship). That's hardly heresy. And no one has claimed that people are saved "outside of Christ." Let's give that a rest. -
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
No one has ever been saved without recognizing that their salvation is only through the shed blood of the Messiah. They cannot simply know about God. -
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Heb. 111:6, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Jesus for one. He said in John 3
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Paul did
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
And how this is done is strictly through His Word:
1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
The very essence of the gospel is that Jesus died on the cross. That is what we are to preach. If Jesus is not preached there is no gospel. If there is no gospel there is no salvation. All of salvation is Christ centered. And salvation does not get vicariously applied by some belief in some god. And if you do not believe in Christ then your god is with a little "g".
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Anything else is another gospel that neither Christ nor Paul preached. And it is complete heresy. I had no idea anyone on this board believed such. -
On this point, I agree with the Rev.
I have been taught the scriptures since I was four years of age. I knew that Jesus died for my sins all this time, but it was not until I "realized" Jesus as my personal Saviour at my confirmation that I became "saved". I rather like the Church of England expression "realized" in relation to the conversion experience. It takes pure and correct knowledge and transfers that knowledge to reality in the Christ.
For some it is an impure realization, and others quite an emotional experience, but this event must happen at some point in each person's life, and each experience requires some knowledge of the redemptive act of the Saviour.
Cheers,
Jim -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
So everyone, by their existence, has a basic understanding that there is Someone greater than themselves. The next step is recognizing that that Someone is reaching out to them in grace and love. -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I'm happy to tell you exactly what I believe and why. I'm a bit mystified by your tone. :wavey: -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Unfortunately, this does not answer my question: “What is the biblical justification for the assertion that those who come to God have to understand the essence of the atonement before they are in right relationship with Him?”
Since Jesus is talking to a teacher who has a vast amount of information regarding what God has been doing in the world and a significant portion of scripture committed to memory, Jesus is obviously not dealing with the issues we are discussing.
Paul did
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.Click to expand...
The part of Paul’s teaching that is most relevant to our discussion is found in Galatians and the argument Paul builds in the earlier part of Romans regarding how all have knowledge of God and how Abraham “believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”
And how this is done is strictly through His Word:
1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.Click to expand...
The very essence of the gospel is that Jesus died on the cross.Click to expand...
That is what we are to preach.Click to expand...
If Jesus is not preached there is no gospel.Click to expand...
Knowing God is the essence of the gospel. God will continue to give illumination to those who receive the light they already have. Like Abraham (and so many modern stories of God dealing with people initially well outside of a Christian witness), God does not leave people where they are but continues to work with the and teach them.
If there is no gospel there is no salvation.Click to expand...
Knowing God (becoming a friend of God) is salvation.
All of salvation is Christ centered.Click to expand...
And salvation does not get vicariously applied...Click to expand...
...by some belief in some God.Click to expand...
Again, I point to Abraham and what Paul said about him.
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.Click to expand...
Anything else is another gospel that neither Christ nor Paul preached.Click to expand...
And it is complete heresy. I had no idea anyone on this board believed such.Click to expand...
And while we’re at it, I do want to have a conversation, not a debate regarding this issue.
The difference between a conversation and a debate is that in a conversation, if someone misspeaks or is not clear in their explanations, the other person doesn’t use it as a club to continually thrash the other person after the position is clarified, recanted or reconsidered. I don’t have a problem admitting when I am wrong and I hope you don’t either. If you can demonstrate to my satisfaction that I am mistaken, then I can change and everyone is better for it. I hope the same is true for you.
On the other hand, debates are often fought to win an argument, using all sorts of rhetorical tactics to cloud the issues and put the opponent at a perceived disadvantage so someone can claim victory. It often turns into a fight dominated by egos, power and mean-spirited words that is the anti-thesis of Christian conduct and diminishes everyone and the cause of Christ. I know how to play that stupid game, but have no interest in that.
If you are willing to have a conversation, I am willing. But this thread is allegedly about liberalism.
I have a lot going today, but I’m hoping to draft a concise exposition of my understanding of this subject and why I believe the way I do tonight or tomorrow. I’ll start a new thread and we can have a discussion that deals substantially with the issues. -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite SupporterJim1999 said: ↑On this point, I agree with the Rev.
I have been taught the scriptures since I was four years of age. I knew that Jesus died for my sins all this time, but it was not until I "realized" Jesus as my personal Saviour at my confirmation that I became "saved". I rather like the Church of England expression "realized" in relation to the conversion experience. It takes pure and correct knowledge and transfers that knowledge to reality in the Christ.
For some it is an impure realization, and others quite an emotional experience, but this event must happen at some point in each person's life, and each experience requires some knowledge of the redemptive act of the Saviour.Click to expand...
From my perspective, I see God working with all humankind to draw us to Christ. Jesus said he would draw all persons unto Himself (John 12:32). He had previously stated that no one could come to the Father except that they be drawn by the Father (John 6:44). In other words, people don't just choose God unless God is already working in their lives. And Jesus taught that no one comes to the Father but through Him (John 14:6).
Now how do we reconcile these three clear teachings from Christ (recorded by the same author!)?
One way to do it is to assume that all persons will be drawn to Christ and all will be saved. While that's a nice thought, the Bible clearly doesn't support that view.
A second way to do it is to believe that God draws people to Christ only when the gospel message is preached with a certain level of completeness. This view has the advantage of reconciling significant portions of the New Testament (as traditionally interpreted by Baptists), but does not effectively deal with a number of passages in the Old and New Testaments that shows God working beyond this limited view. Furthermore, it seems to undermine the desire of God for all person to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9) since huge portions of our world have been cut off from Christian witness for much of Christian history (for instance, North and South America).
Another way to understand it, and it's the way I understand things, is that God is indeed working in every living person (at least, to various degrees) who is willing to receive the truth about God. This God-human interaction continues unless the person decides to reject the truth in a permanent way (only God would know exactly when) and chooses darkness rather than light. For those who remain in the light and continue to learn from God, God will bring additional revelation and information. At some point, they are in right relation with God and are saved because of that relationship. Since God is the one making it possible for people to believe, and since God is dealing directly with people who continually believe and trust Him, even though they don't have much information, on what basis can we declare them outside of God's grace? We don't seem to have too much trouble believing that infants who are not baptized, are not church members, and have not heard, understood, and responded to a gospel message are somehow in God's grace because of their condition. How hard is it to believe that there may be adults out there with whom God is communicating who have trusted all they know themselves to be to all they know God to Be? -
My dear Baptistbeliever. Whilst I am stating what I believe in general terms, the specifics I leave to theology.
My calvinism does not prevent me from preaching a "free and open" gospel to all humankind. I will employ everything possible to reach the lost soul. I truly believe this is my calling. It does not, however, change my theology, on election and predestination.
I do not accept the so-called "age of accountability". The lost are lost regardless of age or circumstance. The only scripture we can rest on regarding an infant child, is David's claim that he would see his son in heaven. Perhaps the reformed people have something in the "covenant promise" and the responsibility rests with those making such a promise. I always claimed this at an infant's or child's funeral.
On these points I am not contentious, and can enjoy fellowship with other believers.
Cheers,
Jim -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite SupporterJim1999 said: ↑My calvinism does not prevent me from preaching a "free and open" gospel to all humankind. I will employ everything possible to reach the lost soul. I truly believe this is my calling. It does not, however, change my theology, on election and predestination.Click to expand...
I do not accept the so-called "age of accountability". The lost are lost regardless of age or circumstance. The only scripture we can rest on regarding an infant child, is David's claim that he would see his son in heaven. Perhaps the reformed people have something in the "covenant promise" and the responsibility rests with those making such a promise. I always claimed this at an infant's or child's funeral.Click to expand...
I have a good friend who grew up Presbyterian and is now Baptist who is hard-core five-point Calvinist. He holds to the convenantal view of the salvation of children, but he hasn't been able to convince me of it yet. However, there is certainly modest scriptural support for the Christian influence of a parent having a spiritual effect on their children.
On these points I am not contentious, and can enjoy fellowship with other believers.Click to expand... -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I started to respond to your whole post. But I believe it would be an exercise in futility since you have this philosophy that believing in God is the same as believing in Christ and His atonement. And this is the base of your, and Willards, entire heresy.
What you are presenting is "Christian Universalism". You present the false idea that to believe in God is also to believe in Christ. But you have that backwards. To believe in Christ is to believe in God. If you do not believe in Christ you do not believe in the one true and living God all though you may hold a belief in a god. True belief is tied up in believing in Christ. John 6:40
You have a grave misunderstanding of the faith of Abraham. The Galatians passage you reference is comparing works to faith. So your point is not made there. And to do so can only be done in and eisegetical manner. Abraham had faith in God, but what was it about God that Abraham believed? There is no doubt he understood in atonement even at this point.(Genesis 15:7-12) Abraham did not simply have faith in an existent god. He had faith in the promise of God. Noah also understood the need for atonement. (Genesis 8:20) and surely you understand that Adam and Eve understood atonement.
No one can come to God and receive a right relationship without understanding the need for atonement. Salvation and atonement are inseparable.
And let me just say as a side note that the use of the word heresy becomes appropriate when one presents themselves to be a Christian and a Baptist but present doctrine contrary to what they are presenting themselves to be. What you have presented is neither Christian nor Baptist. Whether you are or not I will leave for others to determine. But it is without doubt that your error is grave. You should get yourself away from Willard's works based Christian Universalism. -
Some look at the cross and say, "Thank you, Jesus, for dying for me." We tend to forget it is also the awful actions of mankind, in their sinful state, and Jesus experiencing the condemnation for the sin of the whole world. The shame and mockery of the crown of thorns; the gorging of His side to drain the life blood from Him, the gross humiliation of being place between two common criminals and His eventual removal and encasement in the tomb. Thankfully, He rose again to show the victory over sin, and the triumphant seat at the right hand of God the Father.
The cross of Christ is central in scripture. The Old Testament saints looked forward to this Sacrificial Lamb, and we look back to that memorable life of Jesus. Without Jesus, the Christ, there is no redemption, there is no hope, their is no future life in God's heaven.
Thank you, Jesus.
Cheers,
Jim
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