Dave I will pray that you do come to a true understanding of scripture. I have shown you a number of verses that show that your understanding is wrong yet you refuse to accept them.
Limited redeemed, not Limited redemption.
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, Oct 20, 2021.
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
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How else can “to give his life” be read except “Christ died”?
How else can “a ransom for many” be read except “for many”?
Did Christ not die for many (according to Matthew 20:28)? -
Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
Not i
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Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
God loves the world, all people, and wants all to come to Him or
God only loves some, your elect, and has condemned the rest to hell with no chance of salvation. Which would make Him quite unloving don't you think
The bible supports one of those views, hint it is not he one that you are putting forward. -
Therefore, when the Lord said that His death was for the many, then it follows His death was not for the all. He was acknowledging the truth that human kind desire to rebel against God. Clearly shown in the Revelation
Where I’m known to differ with others in this matter is concerning the blood. I take the statement by John as factual, that His blood (the blood sacrifice) was for the redeemed (us, he states) and for the whole world, everybody.
No one goes to hell from a lack of sufficient blood, rather from a lack of having their name in the book of life.
Now the real problem is we’re in the Scriptures does it state when names were placed in the book of life and is there any reference to names added or deleted.
If one were faithful (no matter the doctrinal theory) to the Scripture principle as shown above, there would be a lot less contentious over minor things such as freedom. -
Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
wo
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
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Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
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I do not, for as I shared in a couple posts above, there is never a contradiction in Scripture, and John never used World in any capacity other than the total of creation. -
Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
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I see him being very sincere in his beliefs and understanding of what he sees in the Scriptures.
He thinks I am wrong, and I, in turn, believe him to be in error.
To me there's nothing at all insincere ( disingenuous ) about anything that he has stated.
In addition, I was taught that position from the age of 12 in Independent Baptist churches after I first heard the word of God in 1978...
I am very familiar with the doctrines taught, and the Scriptures from which they originate.
As an example, he believes that God loves everyone equally and has made salvation available to all, with the requirement that they believe on His Son.
As I have shown in prior posts, I believe that God loves His elect, the vessels of mercy, the righteous who are justified by Christ's blood ( which is why they are righteous in God's sight )...
and hates ( with a perfect and righteous hatred that has its basis in His perfect holiness ) the "non-elect", the vessels of wrath, the wicked, those that He has not justified by the blood of His Son.
Based on what I see, salvation is therefore not available to all, but that His purposes according to election will stand...not of works, but "of" Him that calls ( Romans 9:11 ).
Salvation is a sure thing for His people, and the "requirement" of belief is in reality, one of many evidences that His children exhibit.
Simply put, I understand the position intimately... and I know him to be speaking honestly. -
John uses the word “world” ten times.
The ONLY time used as an exaggeration when used by John when quoting the over exuberant alarmed Priests as they sought a way to stop Jesus.
All other uses of the word “world” is used in the context of the whole creation or as systems of the world.
Even in John 3:17, it is the whole world of peoples without Christ.
in John 17, in the Lord mentions the world, again meaning the whole creation except believers.
The clincher is really the expression of 1 John 2:2 where John clearly states that Christ was not merely the blood shed “for us” for believers, but the whole creation, the “kosmos.”
Now, I realize this presents a problem to the typical hard nosed Calvist, but it is never the less true.
The OT atonement sprinkling of blood is the pattern, it covered all the people in the land, not just Jews, but sojourners, slaves… whether folks believed or not.
However, you and I both know that the sacrifice was not a matter of salvation for that has always been of Grace. It was a picture a forth telling of a more excellent and lasting sacrifice. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
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Too often folks lump atonement into one ball of wax (so to speak).
But remember the picture from the OT. It was not just the sprinkling of blood, but others items that together worked in the whole of the atonement.
Each part was important and completed by the Lord Jesus Christ. From the purity of the sacrifice to the leaving the scapegoat in the wilderness, each part including, bowl, Hysop, garments, rope, bells,… all were important aspects of the accomplishment of the OT atonement and pictured some aspect of the Christ’s mission of redemption. -
Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
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Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
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be safe at work.
More and more Calvinists are recognizing this fact concerning the writing of John, and as I have shown are making proper adjustments to their view of atonement.
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