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Featured Made, not Declared

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jun 10, 2021.

  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    God credits the faith, which he gifted to his children as righteous. This is because it is of God and God is righteous.
    If faith was from man, then just like everything coming from man, it would be horribly corrupted and unrighteous.
    So "our faith" only applies to God's elect children to whom God gave faith.
    As long as you keep lifting up humans as generating their own righteousness, you will be opposed by those who lift up God alone as being righteous.
     
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  2. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I am saying, obedience of faith, has to do with God and the Son of God, the Son of Man Not of us. Consider:

    Romans 5:19 NKJV For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

    Is that the obedience Heb 5 speaks of being learned, the obedience Phil 2:8 speaks of as, becoming? What was that obedience? Was it not pouring out his soul, was it not giving his life? Is that speaking of the soul/life of the flesh, in the blood? See Lev 17:11

    Is that obedience being spoken of time specific? Death on the cross?

    Romans 6:14 NKJV For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.--- Is that verse time specific. Was there a moment in time when one went from being under the schoolmaster to being under grace.
    Romans 4:25 YLT who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous. ---- By that before mentioned, obedience?

    Now consider Galatians 3:23-25 YLT
    And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, ----- We are now under grace, the resurrected Christ because of his obedience of faith bringing forth the righteousness of God.

    IMHO faith is of God and a gift of the Spirit unto us.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here, once again is the absurdity defense, God instills faith that is not righteous, using His divine transporter beam, into those He chose before He created them, and then credits His flawed by divinely originated faith as righteousness. Got it...
    And did anyone say we generate our own faith? Thus fallacy supported by fallacy...
     
  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the clarification. I misunderstood your first post.
     
  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Wait, you're saying that God is flawed and thus the gift he gives is flawed. Yet, somehow humans are righteous on their own and God credits them for taking a flawed faith and making the flawed faith... righteous.
    Van, no matter how you slice it, your position attempts to tear God down and lift up self.
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here, once again is the absurdity defense, Does God instill faith that is not righteous, using His divine transporter beam, into those He chose before He created them, and then does He credit His flawed but divinely originated faith as righteousness?
    Of course not, the Calvinist claim is absurd!

    Does God credit our faith as righteousness? See Romans 4
    Do sinners understand and respond to the gospel? See Matthew 13.
    Does God transfer individuals into Christ's kingdom? See Colossians 1:13
    Are we made righteous in Christ? See Romans 5:19.
    Are we made perfect? See Hebrews 12:23
    Are we made blameless and holy? See Colossians 1:22
    Are we sealed with the Holy Spirit forever? See Ephesians 1:13 and John 14:16

    Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

    Romans 4:23-24 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,
    but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead

    Colossians 2:12 Having been buried with him in baptism, you also have been raised with Him by means of your credited faith in the divine power of God who raised Jesus from the dead.
     
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You put the emphasis on "our" and "his" as though the corrupt sinner has made an unrighteous faith, righteous by their own efforts. You ignore all the scripture that shows faith is a gift of God and make God's joy in an individual based solely on the individuals taking a flawed gift and making it righteous by their own efforts.
    Any reader can read your comments and see what you proclaim. It should be a huge red flag to you that so many oppose you everytime you propose your opinion on faith, yet here we are on yet another thread where you are opposed by the vast majority.
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    On and on Calvinists misrepresent the views of others to take the focus off their bogus doctrine.
    The gift of faith is a fiction. God credits our worthless unrighteous faith as righteousness.
    God would not credit His gifted faith, because His gift would not need to be credited as righteous.

    Does God credit our faith as righteousness? See Romans 4
    Do sinners understand and respond to the gospel? See Matthew 13.
    Does God transfer individuals into Christ's kingdom? See Colossians 1:13
    Are we made righteous in Christ? See Romans 5:19.
    Are we made perfect? See Hebrews 12:23
    Are we made blameless and holy? See Colossians 1:22
    Are we sealed with the Holy Spirit forever? See Ephesians 1:13 and John 14:16

    Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

    Romans 4:23-24 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,
    but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead

    Colossians 2:12 Having been buried with him in baptism, you also have been raised with Him by means of your credited faith in the divine power of God who raised Jesus from the dead.
     
  9. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree, Van.
    Why not just present the verse?

    " buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." ( Colossians 2:12 ).

    In the above, it tells me that I was buried with Him in baptism ( see Romans 6:4-5 ), and raised with Him through ( not because of, but through ) the faith "of" ( by or from ) the operation of God...
    Who has raised Christ from the dead.


    Nowhere in that passage does it say, "raised with Him by means of your credited faith in the divine power of God ".


    You've changed the words, Van.
    Not even the Greek has it that way:

    Colossians 2:12 Interlinear:
    Colossians 2:12 - συνταφέντες 5651... - Interlinear Study Bible
    https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/col2.pdf

    However, if you're saying that that is how you personally understand it for yourself,
    Then I must have missed something further back.
     
    #49 Dave G, Jun 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    But it's worthless.

    So, how can the Lord credit what is worth nothing to Him, as being something to Him?:Unsure
    It must be worth something, or it would be worth nothing.
    That's called "grace" Van.

    You see, if God credits our faith as righteousness ( without first giving ( Ephesians 2:8 ) it to us through Christ, who authored and finished it ( Hebrews 12:2 ) for us ), then what He is doing is taking something that we possess or do outside of Him being the cause of it, and making that worth something to Him.

    In the Bible, that makes the Lord a respecter of persons...
    In that what they do, believe, or have determines who He bestows His grace and mercy on.

    Further defined,
    Any effort or belief that gives one person an advantage over another when it comes to the Lord saving someone for Himself, is not of grace.
    It is of merit, and of works.

    See Romans 4:4 and Romans 11:5-6.
     
    #50 Dave G, Jun 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
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  11. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    But that's already been discussed in other threads, Van,
    and it seems that you somehow still declare that an individual's personal faith ( that they "will up" inside of them? ) actually merits them God's gift of eternal life.

    However, even if it isn't, it would be because of "Prevenient Grace"...
    Where the word of God makes it possible for all men to believe, provided they hear the preaching of His word;

    But that still doesn't remove the fact of it being a merit-based system...
    God crediting what He made possible for a person to do, and having to stand back and wait for the person to "exercise" it ( or not to ), in order to grant them the gift ( Romans 6:23 ) of eternal life.



    That said and looking at the above...
    Respectfully, it seems to me that you're contradicting yourself.

    On the one hand you're telling the reader that the believer's faith is worthless.
    On the other, you're saying that what is worthless, is actually worth something.


    I'm confused at this point, and I think I can say that I'm probably not the only one that is.:confused:
     
    #51 Dave G, Jun 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
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  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Amen
     
  13. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Please do not label my on-topic answers to your questions as off-topic.

    I answered honestly according to your questions and you snipped it and declared it as "off-topic"...
    When it wasn't.
    I'm guessing that you didn't read the words.
    Here it is again:
    The very passages that I've listed above, tell us that our sin burden was removed at the cross...
    Not when we believed.
    However, if you wish to teach it the other way, you are of course free to do so.

    I also imagine that quite a few people will believe it.:(
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The preposition "dia" is used in the verse to show causality. Thus I presented the verse, and you presented nonsense.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    When God credits our worthless filthy rag faith as righteousness, God declares our faith as righteous. So simple a child should understand...
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Your posts are filled with copy and paste off topic verbiage.

    And for the umpteenth time, our sin burden is removed when God places us into Christ. Why do you not address that topic. Saying taint so is not addressing the topic. You seem to deny we are baptized INTO Christ, and only after we are within Christ are our sins forgiven by the washing of regeneration which occurs TOGETHER WITH CHRIST. So simple a child should understand it...
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Topic reminder:
    Some claim being made righteous by the blood of Christ is the same thing as being declared righteous or having righteousness "imputed" to us. This assertion is false theology.

    When God and God alone transfers us into Christ, i.e. when we are baptized into Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ where our sin burden (what God holds against us due to sin) is removed. Thus the Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world, one sinner at a time.

    Additionally, some claim we have not been made righteous, because we still think and do sinful things. This assertion is also false theology. Although we certainly think and do sinful things, because we have been justified, once for all our sins, past, present and future, it is just as if we had not sinned, therefore we remain righteous.

    Some English translations of scripture render Titus 3:7 as including "declared righteous" but the vast majority of translations render the Greek word "dikaiOthentes" as "justified. So a Greek word has within its range of meanings "declared righteous" but according modern translations (NASB, NKJV, NET, LEB and NIV) they all render it justified at Titus 3:7.

    Summary, how are we made righteous, by the blood of the Lamb.
    When are we made righteous, when we are transferred into Christ.[/QUOTE]
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Romans 5:19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous

    If the Calvinist view were correct, the verse would read, the many were made righteous. But when Christ died on the cross, referred to as "the obedience of the One" our sin burden was not removed until after God individually placed us into Christ.

    Just one of the numerous mistaken views of Calvinism.
     
  19. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    May I make a suggestion?

    Don't ridicule people that disagree with you, Van;
    It's not polite, and most of all, it's not Christian...
    Nor does it show patience on your part.

    It's so simple an adult should be able to understand it...
    that treating people with respect, whether they disagree with each other or not, is preferable to fighting like children.
    Doubly so for those who name the name of Christ.

    I'll make this my final reply in this thread.


    Good evening to you, sir, and I wish you well...despite our disagreements.
     
    #59 Dave G, Jun 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another off topic post disparaging me personally and not addressing the topic.
     
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