1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Mary, Salvation, and Sin Offering

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Adonia, May 20, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    135
    This is really my OP. I suppose I should answer it.
    Mary offered a sin offering. A sin offering is called a sin offering for no other reason than it is an offering for sin committed. If Mary was sinless she would not have had to offer this offering. The priests would have recognized that fact and prohibited her from offering it. But they required the sin offering and neither did God stop her or them. In fact God required it and it was a commandment from God.
    Who are you or the RCC to assert your philosophy and tradition as more important than the very words of God.

    This is what Jesus meant when he said:
    Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    --In the RCC there is emptiness and vanity in their worship. The doctrine of God is ignored, and the traditions of men is substituted. God hates it, and does not accept it.

    Why would one question God just because they cannot understand the ways of God?
    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
    9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
    --Are you wiser than God? Are your "thoughts" and wisdom greater than his. And yet you question God and tell him: "This cannot be." How arrogant!

    And maybe not. One doesn't need an explanation; one needs to accept the Word of God as it is. Where did God condemn Mary for obeying God's commands? Where did any angel try and stop Mary for doing right? It was a sin offering. A sin offering is for sin. Accept it: don't rationalize about it and try to dismiss it. You need to come to the place where you believe the Bible with no questions asked, and not give into the man-made philosophies of the RCC which run directly contrary to the Bible.

    --She was a vessel used in God's hand to give birth to Jesus. But as John the Baptist put it:
    John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
    --It is Jesus that saves, not Mary. Mary has not part in the salvation of anyone.
    Without Mary? Yes, and without David, and without Jesse, and without Obed? and without Ruth as well. Do you thank God daily for them as well. Do you also pray to them as you pray to Mary. Why or why not?

    Ruth 4:17 And the women her neighbours gave it a name, saying, There is a son born to Naomi; and they called his name Obed: he is the father of Jesse, the father of David.

    To pray to Mary is idolatry. It is robbing the Lord of the worship due to Him alone. It is contrary to the Ten Commandments.

    Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    --Praying TO Mary makes Mary a god. There is no God but the triune Godhead, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. If you are praying to Mary then you are praying to another god, not the God of Christianity.

    Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
    --I see many images of Mary in RCC churches. It is wrong.

    Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
    --People bow down before these images. Just think of the "stations of the cross," and what happens there. That is idolatry.

    If there was no Mary, God would have used another. She was not essential in God's plan.
     
  2. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    3,332
    Likes Received:
    622
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Since you finally answered the thread I shall ask you, what was her sin?

    As for the involvement of any priest, imagine what he would have said if Mary had told him that the child was the result of the Holy Spirit impregnating her? Good grief, he would have said she was completely out of her mind!

    Now, I want to answer your latest accusation that we are somehow involved in "idolatry". Kneeling as we pray the Stations of the Cross is not idolatry. We do not worship any of the depictions of Christ's Passion as we pray about what happened on that fateful day any more than we worship the stained glass windows in a church somewhere that has religious pictures on them.

    We worship God, as he was incarnated as Jesus Christ, not anyone or anything else, got that? Now if you repeat such a falsehood again, YOU will be violating one of the commandments of God - thou shalt not bear false witness.

    But you know, one could level the same type of charge at you, that you seem to worship a book instead of God. Idolatry perhaps? But I know better and would never level such a ridiculous charge.
     
    #62 Adonia, May 26, 2016
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  3. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    3,332
    Likes Received:
    622
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing
    that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

    Exodus 37 Bez′alel made the ark of acacia wood; two cubits and a half was its length, a cubit and a half its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height. 2 And he overlaid it with pure gold within and without, and made a molding of gold around it. 3 And he cast for it four rings of gold for its four corners, two rings on its one side and two rings on its other side. 4 And he made poles of acacia wood, and overlaid them with gold, 5 and put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, to carry the ark. 6 And he made a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half was its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth. 7 And he made two cherubim of hammered gold; on the two ends of the mercy seat he made them, 8 one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat he made the cherubim on its two ends. 9 The cherubim spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, with their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat were the faces of the cherubim.

    Are these the type of graven images you are talking about?

    How about pictures of your friends and relatives or paintings of them, are they forbidden too? I mean the Scripture states: "...or any likeness of any thing....". God seems pretty clear here.


     
    #63 Adonia, May 26, 2016
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  4. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    4,928
    Likes Received:
    883
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Okay...


    Again, you are saying that which I am not. I do not know of anyone who is handicapped getting married. Now, look at our soldiers for instance. When they marry, they are virile, healthy, strong, &c. I have seen the wounded warriors commercials and the women standing by their husband's side, even after being mangled, truly blessed me. That is love exemplified. But when they married, they both had the ability to have intercourse. For the woman(or the man if the woman is no longer able to have intercourse) to leave her husband after such a tragic event, is unconscionable.

    Again, my wife and I are not able to be fruitful. But we both knew this going into our marriage. The foundation of any marriage is love and intercourse is an outpouring of that love.

    The older we get the lower our 'drive' becomes.

    Look at Adam for instance. God made him a helpmate, and look at how He made Eve. It's not rocket science to know neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.[1 Corinthians 11:9] We also know that intercourse betwixt one man and one woman(it's sad we live in a time that I feel compelled to have to spell it at that way as others read this) is only sanctified in marriage. As we can read Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.[Hebrews 13:4]

    But for a marriage to be devoid of intercourse is a recipe for disaster.
     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    135
    Mary sinned every day, just like the rest of us. She didn't confess her sins to me, so you are asking the wrong person.
    She was no exception to the simple truths of the Word of God:

    Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    --Mary is no exception. She is a sinner just like everyone else.

    Why would she say that or be obligated to say that. She would say what God would direct her to say. She was required to keep the law. The law required male children to be circumcised on the eighth day. The law required the mother to bring an offering for her own purification and a sin offering. She was as much a sinner as anyone else, and Christ came to die for her as much as anyone else. If Christ did not die and pay the penalty for the sins of Mary then Mary is in hell today! Is that your belief?

    You make an image of the one you worship (Christ who is God, Mary whom you worship as God).
    --Making the image, in and of itself, without worshiping it, is sin, and a transgression of the Ten Commandments. Why? The Ten Commandments clearly say that we are not to make an image of God or anything in God's likeness.
    Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
    --It is not speaking of art. It is speaking of idolatry, images that represent God--Christ, or Mary that is treated as a god in the RCC.

    I am not bearing false witness. Of course you cannot worship the God you do not know. I was there. I was a Catholic for many years. True Christianity is a relationship not a religion. The Lord Jehovah came to the point where he abhorred and rejected the sacrifices and worship of Israel.
    He does the same with the "worship" of the RCC. It is nothing but vain tradition.

    There is only one way to come to know God, and that is through the Scriptures.
    Jesus Himself said: "Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures..."
    If Jesus Christ is not the Christ of the scriptures, then he is not Jesus Christ at all and one is worshiping a false God.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    135
    Exodus 37 Bez′alel made the ark of acacia wood; two cubits and a half was its length, a cubit and a half its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height.
    --Did Bezalel, or any of the Israelites pray to this ark? Did they ask the ark to intercede for them?
    Did they worship the Ark?
    The answer, of course is "no"

    But when it comes to the idols of Mary and other saints one could post numerous prayers directed to Mary--petitions, prayers of intercession, prayers for redemption, prayers that blasphemously take the place of Christ, for only Christ can save.
    Mary is treated as a god, in fact in the RCC she is a god.
    In this respect the RCC is no better than Hinduism and has become polytheistic. There is only one God, one and only true God. But Catholics worship more than one. All worship belongs to God and God alone.
    Prayer is worship. All prayer is to be directed to God.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,668
    Likes Received:
    14
    Am I to assume from this basket of rocks that I submitted some really heavy material concerning the perpetual virginity of Mary?
     
  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    4,928
    Likes Received:
    883
    Faith:
    Baptist
    At my church, we have pictures of our deceased members on the walls inside of that church. However, we do not bow down to them, nor do we pray to them.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    4,928
    Likes Received:
    883
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Adonia...

    for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,[Romans 3:23]
    For as in Adam all die,[1 Corinthians 15:22]

    All ppl's of all time fit under these two verses, including Mary.

    To say Mary never had intercourse with Joseph is to deny the scripture of But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.[Matthew 1:25] Now how does a married couple consummate a marriage? I'll tell you it is not via a hand shake.

    The RCC are saying that if Mary had had other children, then she would have been a sinner. Intercourse done within the confines of a marriage is a most blessed occurrence, as it was blessed by the Almighty Himself.
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    14,951
    Likes Received:
    1,342
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So, based on your explanation here, single soldiers who were injured in such a manner are not able to marry. The marriage of people like Joni Eareckson Tada is unbiblical. Is that more along the lines of what you are talking about (if you can't have intercourse then you can't be biblically married, but are just roommates)?
     
  11. annsni

    annsni Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,909
    Likes Received:
    705
    Except we don't pray to the Bible asking the Bible to do things for us. We don't venerate it and we don't expect it to do miracles. BIG difference.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    3,332
    Likes Received:
    622
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    And guess what, neither do we bow down to any pictures or other representations that we have in our church's. Exodos says that no likeness of anything shall be used, so it seems to me a literal reading of the Scriptures (as many here read them) would bar them too. But the following continues to be the truth, that we Catholics worship God as He was incarnated in the form of Jesus Christ Our Lord and any other charge against us is false and a complete lie.
     
    #72 Adonia, May 27, 2016
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
  13. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    3,332
    Likes Received:
    622
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    And rightly so, because the Bible is a book. Look, I know you folks don't agree with us, but look at it this way. If I ask you to pray for me, you yourself become an intercessor between me and God. It is the same way as the Church teaches, that we ask the saints in heaven who are as alive in Christ as you or me to do the same thing - pray for us. That's it, there is no worship involved here, none, nada, as we believe that belongs to God and to God alone.
     
    #73 Adonia, May 27, 2016
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
  14. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    3,332
    Likes Received:
    622
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    --Mary is no exception. She is a sinner just like everyone else.


    Why would she say that or be obligated to say that. She would say what God would direct her to say. She was required to keep the law. The law required male children to be circumcised on the eighth day. The law required the mother to bring an offering for her own purification and a sin offering. She was as much a sinner as anyone else, and Christ came to die for her as much as anyone else. If Christ did not die and pay the penalty for the sins of Mary then Mary is in hell today! Is that your belief?


    You make an image of the one you worship (Christ who is God, Mary whom you worship as God).
    --Making the image, in and of itself, without worshiping it, is sin, and a transgression of the Ten Commandments. Why? The Ten Commandments clearly say that we are not to make an image of God or anything in God's likeness.
    Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
    --It is not speaking of art. It is speaking of idolatry, images that represent God--Christ, or Mary that is treated as a god in the RCC.


    I am not bearing false witness. Of course you cannot worship the God you do not know. I was there. I was a Catholic for many years. True Christianity is a relationship not a religion. The Lord Jehovah came to the point where he abhorred and rejected the sacrifices and worship of Israel.
    He does the same with the "worship" of the RCC. It is nothing but vain tradition.


    There is only one way to come to know God, and that is through the Scriptures.
    Jesus Himself said: "Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures..."
    If Jesus Christ is not the Christ of the scriptures, then he is not Jesus Christ at all and one is worshiping a false God.[/QUOTE]


    As I expected, you could not name her sin except in general terms, and that is something that we will continue to be at odds with. You also continue to lie about this after I told you the truth and I am not surprised that you would go on with this falsehood.

    As the Scripture says
    : "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth". Images appear on the Ark of the Covenant itself - the cheribum, (which you so conveniently ignored), and that shows that some images are acceptable by God. But what about the words "any likeness of any thing" shall be constructed? That would mean any picture, drawing, or any other representation that you may have is also barred on command of God. I ask you, do you have any of those in your possession? Wouldn't that be a violation of the command by God too?
     
    #74 Adonia, May 27, 2016
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
  15. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    28
    You mean like this:

    bf206b4bf9234996b895523df44e5330.jpg
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  16. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    28
    131224-pope-francis-hmed-448p.jpg

    Here is a pope kissing and bowing to a false image among false images.
     

    Attached Files:

    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    28
    That's not the same thing as asking someone to pray for you. The Bible does exhort us to pray for each other, but never, never tells us to seek the dead on behalf of the living. In fact, the Scripture tells you NOT to do that.

    And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? Isa 8:19

    Moreover, there is only one mediator between us and God, the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. annsni

    annsni Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,909
    Likes Received:
    705
    No?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,884
    Likes Received:
    77
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Well, Ann, we have been round and round about this one for years, eh? As a Catholic I my love for Jesus Christ has become much deeper and much richer than it even did as a Baptist. I don't worship Mary or the saints and have never worshipped statues (although I have them in various places of my home). I know WHO and WHAT I worship! I observed Baptists who appeared to worship the bible (bibliolatry), and I'm betting because of your bias you would never admit that takes place. Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics like yourself confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.

    Bowing can be used as a posture in worship, but I will remind you AGAIN that not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. Christians in the UK give the queen a 'bow' (curtsey). A Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than a Baptist like you who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.
     
    #79 Walter, May 27, 2016
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
  20. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    4,928
    Likes Received:
    883
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The bowing before those idols was not in respect but in prayer, Walter. Huge difference than bowing to ppl in Japan. They were bowed before them in prayer. A huge no no.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...