Do you have any inclination to write 'Armeninism and Calvinism' on a piece of paper and throw it away and open up a Bible and never mention them again?
Adam sinned, all are lost, hopeless, have no ability, and all the thoughts of their imagination ARE ONLY EVIL, continually, and all will go to Hell.
That is what The Bible Teaches.
All children of Adam are Condemned, Damned, and Will Experience The Wrath of God, Forever, for their carnal, fleshly, God-hating, sin against The Eternal Trice-Holy Lord God Almighty.
There is NOTHING you or I can do about it.
If you do not believe that Adam sinned and that that left him dead in trespasses and sins, then spend your life proving you are The Enemy of God.
Otherwise, His Eternal Plan of Salvation to Glorify His Son by Redeeming those He Chose, is THE ONLY HOPE, of wretched, wicked, vile, and naked blind, dead, lost souls.
Admit that it is THAT GOD you hate and leave John Calvin out of it, unless you are also too provokatively cowardly to do that.
It's a cheap trick to play card tricks with the name John Calvin and IT IS TOO CHEAP to Talk about.
There is No 'Armenian vs Calvinism Debait'.
Adam sinned.
Ether a lost soul is Led by God Through His Eternal Word to TAKE THEIR POSITION, as a natural born sinner, as a child of Adam who sinned, that is undone, weighed in the balances and left wanting, or THEY GO TO HELL.
To deny that is Eternally Fatal.
"Maybe its real ,and I'm not Chosen "
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Sep 9, 2020.
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Alan Gross Well-Known Member
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If it's all humanity then you are back to universalism. If it's just believers then the atonement is limited to believers. Which is it?
There is, by the way, nothing that says a person must do something to make God do something. Look at the verse. You are projecting into the verse what is not there. -
Barry Johnson Well-Known Member
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Barry Johnson Well-Known Member
Now some start using the negative inference fallacy by saying the ' our' and the' US 'only refers to believers or the elect . But yet when Paul says in Gal 2.20
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me
No one thinks Jesus only died for just Paul . -
MB -
The verse assumes some are not drawn. Not all can come to Christ.
Quantrill -
What is clear is Jesus atonement is limited to those the Father has given him to believe. -
Even if you “qualify” the word “conviction” with “occurs to all sinners alike”, you still have God choosing to pass over those who will not respond, because He knows who will respond to that conviction.
And when you qualify “conviction” with “occurs to all sinners alike” you are saying there is something within each person that believes that makes them better than those that don’t, because they chose to believe.
In short, God is denied the glory of bringing His people to salvation and given to those “better” people who had something special inside that led them to believe.
peace to you -
Alan Gross Well-Known Member
...but what should we except from God's Gifts. -
Barry Johnson Well-Known Member
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5.8
1 John 2:2-4
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. -
Barry Johnson Well-Known Member
/////The moment you concede that God must intervene in a persons life for that person to believe onto salvation you are acknowledging that God choses who will be saved and that “free will” in mankind is a lie.///// ' intervene ' ? that's general . I simply said about what the Holy Spirit does to the whole world . That does not then conclude ' God chooses who will be saved ' thats a faulty assumption. God has sovereignly chosen to send the Holy Spirit to : And when he is come, he will reprove the WORLD of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
////And when you qualify “conviction” with “occurs to all sinners alike” you are saying there is something within each person that believes that makes them better than those that don’t, because they chose to believe./// More faulty assumptions here . How does " occurs to ALL sinners alike " equate " something within each person that believes that makes them better than those that don’t, because they chose to believe. The Holy Spirit is when he is come, he will reprove the WORLD of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Not ,ok bill over there lets give him 85 % sprinkles and Joe he needs 68% sprinkles. No the whole world . -
Barry Johnson Well-Known Member
Where does
It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11) -
According to your statements, God Holy Spirit must intervene with “conviction” for someone to be saved. You also stated God Holy Spirit convicts all people “the same”. Is that correct?
If that is true, then by God deciding to use the same amount of “conviction” on everyone, knowing that “conviction” will not be powerful enough for many/most to come to salvation, then God has deliberately passed over those people.
Additionally, the people that do respond to “conviction” by God Holy Spirit must have something inside themselves that sets them apart from those that don’t.
peace to you -
Romans 5:8- The "us" is referring to believers, not to all humanity. (Jesus died for his sheep. Us.)
1 John 2:4 - "Our" sins refers to the believers John is addressing as well as all believers across the whole world. (Jesus died for his sheep. All his sheep.)
Barry, your insistence on universalism and then denying universalism at the same time is your great conundrum.
When all is used, it is in reference to all believers. If it is all humanity, then all humanity is saved. Jesus did not shed his blood in vain. -
Just one more question. What is it exactly about God choosing who will be saved that you find objectionable?
Please don’t tell me it’s a false doctrine based on out of context passages of scripture. I already know you believe that.
What do you find objectionable about God choosing who will be saved?
peace to you -
According to John 6:44, those that are drawn will come to Christ, and all those that come to Christ will be raised up at the last day.
So, if all men everywhere are drawn, then all men are given to Christ by the Father.
All that are given to Christ will come to Him.
All that learn "of" ( by or from ) the Father will come to Christ.
All that believe on Him are the ones given to Him by the Father.
John 6:37-45.
Therefore,
All that are drawn will believe.
Are you following this sequence?
In the end, if all men who have ever lived and died were "drawn" to Christ, then all men who have ever lived are saved.
In other words,
If everyone is drawn, then everyone will believe and everyone will be raised up when Christ comes again instead of part being raised up in one phase, and the rest for the Judgement.
That's Universalism.:( -
Barry Johnson Well-Known Member
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Barry Johnson Well-Known Member
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What if the whole world will be saved. Would it upset you and if so why?
The Father sent the son to save the world isn't this the Father's will. I'm not claiming the whole world will be saved. I'm saying that it's God's will.
Obviously there are many who will not be saved because they do not believe. No one is saved with out believing.
MB -
I'm not claiming the whole world will be saved because being drawn does not mean you will believe. You are assuming this is so. We already know Judas was drawn but was lost. Look this passage over real close.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
MB
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