McLaren to Celebrate Ramadan with Muslims

[Bro. Curtis]

Also, you will not see any "love" or "acceptance" in Jonah's message. He actually WANTED Ninevah's destruction.

 

[Marcia]

I don't necessarily agree with McLaren here, but is it your contention that Jesus didn't learn while he was on this earth? If he was human, he learned all his life, as alll humans do. Luke 2:40 even notes that, as he grew in stature, he also grew in wisdom.

I don't know whom you are addressing, but I'll respond.

Yes, Lk 2:40 says Jesus grew in wisdom - he was a child then. Plus, we have God's word for it. However, the text does not say or even imply that Jesus learned anything from the Syrophoenician woman and it certainly does not say that He was "inspired" by her! Does this not bother you? Someone is making a claim for something that is not there in the text at all.

In regards to the monotheistic worship of the Muslim faith, the Judaism of Jesus' day was different than today, because Jews categorically deny the true nature of God, which is triune. Yet those who admonish worship of Muslims (or, for that matter, most other monotheistic faiths) usually give a free pass to worship with Jews.

The Jewish faith gave prophecies of the Messiah and the Jewish scriptures do give evidence of a Trinitarian God, so the biblical Jewish faith is not anti-Trinitarian. Just because some Jews rejected Jesus does not mean Judaism was a false religion. How could it be when it was started by God Himself?

Islam is not remotely related to Judaism. Allah is not the God of the OT, who is the true God.

 

[Johnv]

Just because some Jews rejected Jesus does not mean Judaism was a false religion.

But Judaism rejects Christ as savior today, reject the Trinity, and rejects salvation through the Savior. Using the same measuring stick, they therefore qualify as a false religion.

Allah is not the God of the OT, who is the true God.

As per above, a deity devoid of Jesus is not the God of the Bible. Hence, Judaism is therefore a false religion.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

I always find these stories dubious, at best. The Holy Spirit simply does not move that way. You cannot find Christ celebrating another faith, and you cannot find one biblical prophet converting anyone by a message of "non-judgment". Every conversion in scripture is a result of conviction of sin, thru a message of separation & repentance. Remember Johah's sermon ? Converted an entire city.

I hate to say I don't believe yer story, but I don't believe yer story.

Once again, the omniscient Curtis has the amazing and uncanny ability to deem when people are lying. Not.

 

[Johnv]

Yes, Lk 2:40 says Jesus grew in wisdom - he was a child then.

Since Jesus was fully human, there's nothing to suggest that Jesus stopped learning when he got to adulthood. The idea would contradict the nature of humankind.

the text does not say or even imply that Jesus learned anything from the Syrophoenician woman

I agree. Scripture is silent on the topic, which is why I noted very expressly that I don't agree with McLaren.

and it certainly does not say that He was "inspired" by her!

I think you might be reading too much into his words. Are you prehaps thinking that McLaren was implying inspiration in a similar manner that scripture is inspired? Even though I don't defend McLaren, I don't believe that's what he was saying.

Does this not bother you?

The fact alone of McLaren joining Muslims for Ramadan doesn't bother me in and of itself. However, I find his reasoning for doing to to be bothersome. I think I've made that rather plain here.

 

[donnA]

But Judaism rejects Christ as savior today, reject the Trinity, and rejects salvation through the Savior. Using the same measuring stick, they therefore qualify as a false religion.

As per above, a deity devoid of Jesus is not the God of the Bible. Hence, Judaism is therefore a false religion.

BIG SURPRISE, I'm going to agree with you here.

You cannot find Christ celebrating another faith, and you cannot find one biblical prophet converting anyone by a message of "non-judgment".

Biblically this is true.

 

[Nonsequitur]

Years ago, my sister-in-law was married to a Muslim man. We occaisionally joined them for Ramadan, and they occaisionally joined us for Christmas. Never had any spiritual problem with it in the slightest. I've joined Jewish friends for Rosh Hashana, too, and never had a problem with that either (and the last time I checked, Jews deny the trinity).

Recently, my brother in law passed away from a sudden form of cancer. It was dibilitating. He accepted Christ on his deathbed. He said one of the things that drew him to Christ was that we never judged him or looked our nosed at his ways when we were invited to his house. We respected his ways, and that drew him to our ways. He said he realized it was the Holy Spirit working in him by our actions.

Never, ever apologize for doing what is right; (in this case, showing the love of Christ to a non-believer). My hat is off to you, and another soul was saved by the drawing of the Holy Spirit. :thumbs::godisgood:

 

[Nonsequitur]

Like some others, I went to a passover dinner at a friends house. My wife and I were the only Christians there. All else were rather religious Jews. They knew I was a pastor but welcomed me. In the course of the meal, they asked if baptists have "anything like this". I told them about the Lord's Supper and how it is part of the Passover meal. It was an opportunity to talk about Jesus.

My pastor held a Seder just to show to the ones who where interested, what was involved. I know I will get slammed for this, but, before Christ, being a Jew was the only way to the one true God. Think about it. If Christ had not come yet and died on the cross,(over 2000 years ago), wouldn't you want to be a Jew following the one true God?
And yes, I love the chance you got to talk about Christ.:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

But Judaism rejects Christ as savior today, reject the Trinity, and rejects salvation through the Savior. Using the same measuring stick, they therefore qualify as a false religion.

As per above, a deity devoid of Jesus is not the God of the Bible. Hence, Judaism is therefore a false religion.

Jews reject Christ as Savior: Judaism prophesys Him.

Judiasm when Jesus came was not a false religion; the leaders were not following God but there were faithful Jews, and even Greeks who had converted to Judaism.

The Judaism that is recognized as prophesying Christ and the Judaism that we see in God's word today is not false; it's just part 1 of God's plan of redemption.

 

[Nonsequitur]

Judaism and Ramadan have nothing, absolutely nothing in common. Jesus was Jewish and went to the synagogues. I cannot see Jesus celebrating Ramadan in honor of a false god, Allah./quote]

Nor would He, since the religion of Islam came 600 years later. Don't get me wrong. They don't have anything in common, including the time frame.

 

[Marcia]

Since Jesus was fully human, there's nothing to suggest that Jesus stopped learning when he got to adulthood. The idea would contradict the nature of humankind.

There is nothing in the text to indicate he kept learning; he was God, after all. He even knew people's thoughts. "Grew in wisdom" does not necessarily mean learning, either.

I agree. Scripture is silent on the topic, which is why I noted very expressly that I don't agree with McLaren.

It's not just that scripture is silent - it's that there is zero indication of anything there that McLaren is proclaiming.

I think you might be reading too much into his words. Are you prehaps thinking that McLaren was implying inspiration in a similar manner that scripture is inspired? Even though I don't defend McLaren, I don't believe that's what he was saying.

How could Jesus be inspired by this woman in any manner? And McLaren, I strongly doubt, would never clarify this if asked. He's an expert at ambivalence.

The fact alone of McLaren joining Muslims for Ramadan doesn't bother me in and of itself. However, I find his reasoning for doing to to be bothersome. I think I've made that rather plain here

Okay.

 

[Marcia]

Why a Christian should not celebrate Ramadan:

Ramadan is a Muslim period of fasting which takes place during the ninth month of the Islamic year. Ramadan begins at dawn and continues to sunset. This commemorates the first revelation of the Quran to the prophet Muhammad, around 610 AD, peace be upon him. The 27th night of the month is known as the Night of Power when the first verses of the Quran were revealed

http://www.examiner.com/x-14414-Col...xaminer~y2009m8d22-What-is-Ramadan--Islam-101

The Month of Ramadan is also when it is believed the Holy Quran "was sent down from heaven, a guidance unto men, a declaration of direction, and a means of Salvation".

http://www.holidays.net/ramadan/story.htm


Ramadan is held to celebrate the "revelation" of a false holy book. In fact, Mohammed was illiterate and couldn't even write down what the angel (demon) supposedly told him. His followers later claimed to gather the writings together that had been written down by various other followers.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Once again, the omniscient Curtis has the amazing and uncanny ability to deem when people are lying. Not.

I don't buy it, and don't care what you think. Show me in scripture where compromise has resulted in a single conversion.

I'll save you some work....you can't.

 

[Eric B]

Islam is not remotely related to Judaism. Allah is not the God of the OT, who is the true God.

That's not true, as Muhammad did initially start with a form of Judaism, yet moved it further away from orthodoxy as they rejected him. The Arabic "allah" is derived from the Hebrew "eloah" via the Aramaic "Elah".
If it is a false god, it is false for the same reasons Judaism would be in error. People make a big issue with Allah/Islam because (besides this Christian Zionist "Jews are on our side, Islam is the enemy of both" mindset) they are hung up in this "Allah was one of 360 gods" myth. What happened was that the Arabs (who are also from Abraham and once knew the true God) began worshipping all these other things besides God, who then became lost in a pantheon, just as kept happening in Israel.

So I wish we would quit singling Islam out in comparison to Judaism. It serves no purpose but to sidetrack the real issue. The two religions are very much similar when it comes to the question of "what will you do with this Jesus?" (Islam is a bit closer in granting Him the title "Messiah", but both reject Him as Son of God and Savior).

I would say that most Jewish practices are more trustworthy or "sanitary" than Islamic ones, since they did have biblical, God-inspired roots.

 

[matt wade]

That's not true, as Muhammad did initially start with a form of Judaism, yet moved it further away from orthodoxy as they rejected him. The Arabic "allah" is derived from the Hebrew "eloah" via the Aramaic "Elah".
If it is a false god, it is false for the same reasons Judaism would be in error. People make a big issue with Allah/Islam because (besides this Christian Zionist "Jews are on our side, Islam is the enemy of both" mindset) they are hung up in this "Allah was one of 360 gods" myth. What happened was that the Arabs (who are also from Abraham and once knew the true God) began worshipping all these other things besides God, who then became lost in a pantheon, just as kept happening in Israel.

So I wish we would quit singling Islam out in comparison to Judaism. It serves no purpose but to sidetrack the real issue. The two religions are very much similar when it comes to the question of "what will you do with this Jesus?" (Islam is a bit closer in granting Him the title "Messiah", but both reject Him as Son of God and Savior).

I would say that most Jewish practices are more trustworthy or "sanitary" than Islamic ones, since they did have biblical, God-inspired roots.

Islam does not worship God, they worship satan. Islam is nothing but an invention of satan, intended to lead people away from a true relationship with God through Jesus.

 

[Eric B]

Islam does not worship God, they worship satan. Islam is nothing but an invention of satan, intended to lead people away from a true relationship with God through Jesus.

We should be careful with this "they worship satan". To worship Satan is a specific charge of directing worship towards Satan, rather than worshipping a deity they are saying is the Creator. If you go to them saying this, you will only go off track and cause a fight.
Paul spoke of people worshipping God, but not according to knowledge. Even the pagans he said this about regarding the "unknown God" they had an altar to.
So the point is that they are trying to reach God according to a false gospel that will not save. Or "not worshipping according to Spirit and truth". And Judaism is the same way, along with every other religion, yet most would never accuse Judaism of worshipping Satan. We are not even usually that hard on the "cult" groups that we say follow another Jesus (JW's, etc). So I'm seeing some particular antagonism against Islam with these strong words, (again, due to the political hostility some of them have towards us, plus the "one out of 360" myth), and I think we need to cool it a bit if we want to be witnesses to them.

 

[donnA]

Islam does not worship God, they worship satan. Islam is nothing but an invention of satan, intended to lead people away from a true relationship with God through Jesus.

A person can worship God, the God of the bible, or they can worship satan, there is nothng else, all other religions and objects of worship are from satan.
the God of the bible is not named allah, there are no similarities. People are blinded by satan into believing this

 

[Psalm 95]

This has caused a large debate among the largest swedish baptist denomination, Evangeliska Frikyrkan. The chairman on his blog wrote that McLaren was in error. The Dean of the ÖTH seminary thinks not. The debate has been very heated.

For those of you who might read Swedish, here is the blog that started it all http://www.stefansward.se/

 

[matt wade]

We should be careful with this "they worship satan". To worship Satan is a specific charge of directing worship towards Satan, rather than worshipping a deity they are saying is the Creator. If you go to them saying this, you will only go off track and cause a fight.
Paul spoke of people worshipping God, but not according to knowledge. Even the pagans he said this about regarding the "unknown God" they had an altar to.
So the point is that they are trying to reach God according to a false gospel that will not save. Or "not worshipping according to Spirit and truth". And Judaism is the same way, along with every other religion, yet most would never accuse Judaism of worshipping Satan. We are not even usually that hard on the "cult" groups that we say follow another Jesus (JW's, etc). So I'm seeing some particular antagonism against Islam with these strong words, (again, due to the political hostility some of them have towards us, plus the "one out of 360" myth), and I think we need to cool it a bit if we want to be witnesses to them.

I'm not evangelizing to a muslim right now. I am speaking with other Christians and in that company I can certainly speak the absolute truth and say that muslims worship satan, as do JWs, as do the hindu, etc. Obviously if I am evangelizing to a muslim, or a person of another faith, I am not going to yell at them and tell them they are satan worshippers.

 

[Eric B]

A person can worship God, the God of the bible, or they can worship satan, there is nothng else, all other religions and objects of worship are from satan.
the God of the bible is not named allah, there are no similarities. People are blinded by satan into believing this

allah is a different language, and it does translate into the biblical Hebrew terms for God.
Where the similarities end is in what the religion attributes to him. That's where the falsehood is, not in the name. Again, this is sidetracking.

I'm not evangelizing to a muslim right now. I am speaking with other Christians and in that company I can certainly speak the absolute truth and say that muslims worship satan, as do JWs, as do the hindu, etc. Obviously if I am evangelizing to a muslim, or a person of another faith, I am not going to yell at them and tell them they are satan worshippers.

Actually, you are possibly witnessing to them right now; as they could be reading this.

And the first thing they will see in many places is that they are worshipping Satan because of the name they use, even moreso than because of the rejection of the Son (which is of course taken as a given, while the name issue is what is emphasized over and over).

Salvation for them is not changing the language one says elohim in, it's solely in recognizing their need for a savior and accepting Jesus as that savior.