Featured Men only for pastor - and.....

I don't understand. I asked you to explain your term "controlling authority" and then show me a place in scripture where it is exercised so I can understand what you mean by the term.

Since you are using the terminology as the key to your interpretation, I hoped you would be able to explain it.

 

When did I use the term?

 

I apologize. I confused you with another poster.

I don't think you have used the term and my previous post was wrong.

 

No problem. I am confused myself. I can't remember why I posted the post you responded to.

 

I am sorry I spoke so confidently about a concept called "authority" that I couldn't precisely define easily.

OK, as for my word study, I first went to Strong's and was told it was the Greek word "authenteo" which means the English word "authority." According to the dictionary the word "authority" means:

1. the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience.
2. the right to act in a specified way, delegated from one person or organization to another.
3. official permission; sanction.

I decided this was not enough by a long shot, so I next went to Kittel's theological dictionary of the New Testament. It didn't even have the word "authenteo" in it.

Finally, I turned to the internet and through Bible Tools and Bible Study Tools I found the following:
(Strongs's #831: authenteo - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools)
(Authenteo - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard)

1. One who with his own hands kills another or himself
2. One who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3. An absolute master
4. To govern, exercise dominion over one

The word "authenteo" is also only found once in the bible. This complicates things considerably to me.

So I will try to figure this out by usage of the definitions found on the internet bible study websites. Before I do this I need to understand that this passage refers not to the world but the church, as seems to be made clear by 1 Timothy 3:14-15 as context for its preceding verses.

1. It cannot be killing someone.
2. It is very confusing to use this to mean a husband or a man acting on their own authority as an autocrat.

3. Absolute master seems close to the biblical passage 1 Peter 3:1-6. Such authority in marriage never belongs to the woman in the marriage relationship and never should according to the bible. So perhaps this means that women should always obey men as masters when in the context of God's household, except of course if they are told to do something wrong. This may make sense when combined with all the verses on what makes a godly woman.

4. Govern and "spiritual" dominion are what we typically think with authority in the church. The word "govern" means:

1. conduct the policy, actions, and affairs of (a state, organization, or people).
2. control, influence, or regulate (a person, action, or course of events).
3. conduct oneself, especially with regard to controlling one's emotions.
4. serve to decide (a legal case).

The word "dominion" means:

1. sovereignty; control.
2. the territory of a sovereign or government.

I am left with figuring out whether it is #3 and #4. Either way it means considerably more than when I started, and it may be very hard to understand for many people in baptist churches.

Number 3 means that we have overwhelmingly missed the mark on what it means to be a godly woman in God's household.

Number 4 means that women should have no governing authority at all in the context of the church, that women should have no control over men at all in the context of the church, and that women should never speak for or represent a congregation in any way.

It may even be both, but I kind of doubt that.

I want to start a thread on this now that will do a study on what it means to be a godly woman. With a biblical model of godly womanhood, I hope to interpret this all a lot better.

 

Thinking about it I think it is that we have in fact forgotten what it means to be a godly woman, particularly because of how effective feminism has been at being accepted almost unanimously.

I also think that if women are to deffer to and be mild in spirit around men in church, similar to how they should be to their husbands. Then that precludes them from having positions of leadership in which they talk for the whole congregation, they should not have anything like coercive authority in the church over men, and women should also not be in positions of decision-making over men in the church. I know this sounds radical, but I fail to see any way to understand New Testament sections on what makes a godly woman without eventually coming to these conclusions. There are also no women in the New Testament ever given such authority over men as far as I know.

 

Proverbs 31 is a good picture of a godly woman. She works hard for her family, leads a business and purchases property as part of her business dealings. Her husband's peers are impressed with her ability and the decisions she makes.

And men should defer (submit) to women and other men in the churches too, just like scripture teaches (Ephesians 5:21).

 

Proverbs 31 is not about leading a business good grief.

 

Who said it was?

It is a portrait of a godly woman (aka, an "excellent wife" Proverbs 31:10). One of the things certain people like to skip over is that she runs a business (v.13-14, 24) and buys property with the proceeds (v.16).

But since we are playing your strange game, I'll have you know that Genesis 7 is not about steamships. Good grief!

 

She doesn't run a business. Women couldn't even own property then. What she does do is keep her household running.

 

Proverbs 31:13-14, 24

She looks for wool and flax
And works with her hands in delight.
She is like merchant ships;
She brings her food from afar.
...
She makes linen garments and sells them,
And supplies belts to the tradesmen.​

Sorry. By any sane definition, that's a business.

Notice that I didn't say she "owned" it, but rather that she bought property. Why did I say that? Because God's word says it:
Proverbs 31:16

She considers a field and buys it;
From her earnings she plants a vineyard.​

Do you believe the scripture or not?

 

BB, it was in another thread, now closed, that you mentioned Earle Ellis's book Pauline Theology. I made a few comments on it HERE.

 

We have a woman serving as Treasurer...I have no issue with it. It's a non-ministerial gift to be able to manage money. She is not a spiritual leader in the church. For that matter, I'm not sure Trustee would really be a male-only thing, either. The Bible doesn't mention that office. And Trustees are not spiritual leaders, either.

 

Pastor is a gift of God to the church and elder is a devinely-appointed office. These are not the same. Elders according to the Bible are men who are called to oversee the local church.

 

While it is true that pastors are loved and trusted leaders tending for the flock by being among their followers by simple word study, and elders/overseers are the leaders of entire congregations; We have long since created the term pastor to refer to elders and forgotten any official title for pastors in local churches except "mentor" or ministry leader.

Then again, I agree with your sentiment that the "lost" service positions in the bible for local churches should be reclaimed. I don't want to seem like a hypocrite though because I like to argue deacons are just those with servant positions in local churches. An argument I now see I have to adapt to historical reality.