Mississippi Baptists press for new state flag

What do you see as "devices"?

I think that for the most part we agree about a lot but we view the relationship between systemic racism and racist acts in reverse of how the other sees it.

I do agree that certain racist activity could still exist after the policy of it is banned (if anything, Selma highlighted this fact). But where I disagree is that such racist activities are left over from such past policies. I do not believe that the policies advanced racism, but hold the opposite is true - that racism advanced those policies. The racism that exists today is not, in my view, related to systemic racism but is related to that evil from which systemic racism was derived.

If that is true, and I believe it is, then there is very little we can do about current racist activities except curtail people acting out on their beliefs. We could, I suppose, ban racist expressions but the problem there is the protections granted freedom of expression are there to protect offensive expression (non-offensive expression never needed protection).

As far as the statues go, it is just acting out for the most part (a type of temper tantrum). Those who want them removed are not offending racists as much as trying to erase a romanticized culture that other people value. It is like banning Gone with the Wind because of racism when the thing is a work of fiction to begin with. To turn it around, it would be removing any trace of "African heritage" from Black Americans because what is held is a romanticized view void of ugliness and evil. "Dixie" is to many southerners what "Africa" is to many Black Americans. That is why I say the whole issue is superficial nonsense. That said, I really do not care about monuments.

Take the monuments. Leave the cannoli. :)

 

Good illustration. This clarifies things (and should for others here...but probably wont).

I agree with you (given the illustration). Where we disagreed was a matter of definition. The boulder is still rolling. I have not, however, seen a viable plan to slow it down.

This is where the discussion needs to be - not with accusing people who had nothing to do with setting the boulder on its course or pretending not to see the thing or the damage that it has caused.

We see that on this thread with irrelevant comments like "but there are poor white people". The issue is not ones state but ones opportunities to change ones state.

In the end life is simply not fair. We work with what we are given and try to leave the world in a better place. Equality is not an obtainable goal (equality and liberty can never coexist, and neither can be fully realized in this world), but perhaps stopping the boulder and doing our best to help those caught in its path is, to a great extent, obtainable. But only if people are able to be honest enough to see the damage caused.

I agree. My point is these symbols mean different things to different people. It is wrong to insist a rebel flag indicates to any degree that the person displaying the flag is a racist. It is just as wrong to insist the person offended by the flag is wrongfully offended. Christian churches that had swastikas engraved on their buildings were not racist although swastikas symbolize the Nazi party. That said, because the swastika has come to represent racism those churches would be right to remove the symbol (one meaning does not negate the other.

The demand should not be "remove that racist symbol". It should be a conversation along the lines "I understand to you this symbolizes xyz, but to me it is offensive because xyz". Few are interested in conversation (I seriously doubt this would be an issue today except it causes hurt on both sides of the debate...and I believe the hatred is intentional...perhaps more damage from that rolling boulder towards all involved.

I understand this. I am saying both sides cling to a romanticized "heritage" . One side pretends all that existed in "Dixie" was cornbread, sweet tea and the Dukes of Hazzard. The other side pretends Africa was a homeland and white people are still pushing that boulder.

When did we start being sensitive??? :Laugh

 

I think for you when white folks started denying that the rebel flag and statues of Uncle Tom could possible be offensive. I was born this way. :Biggrin