My Journey Into The Catholic Church

I could not figure out why it was that it seemed to me that Catholics worshiped Mary, even though I had found documentation that the Church clearly condemned worshiping her. As a Baptist I defined worship as songs, prayers and a sermon. If a Catholic sang a song about Mary, petitioned Mary in prayer and preached about her, my Baptist brain told me they were worshiping her. But Catholics define worship differently. They see it as the sacrifice of the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Catholics would NEVER offer a sacrifice of Mary nor to Mary on the altar.
I had a wall of emotional block when it came to the 'thing' about Mary. A Catholic asked me, 'why don't you think of Mary as another Christian that you can ask for help?' Hebrews 11 is that great 'faith' chapter and we find a listing of wonderful saints who risked a lot (including their lives) for our Lord. Take a look at the start of chapter 12. It says, 'Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every sin and weight that so easily besets us and let us run with perseverence the race set before us, keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the pioneer and perfector of our faith.'
Now, I was taught as a Baptist that the contact between heaven and earth is only between each one of us and the Lord, right? As DHK clearly pointed out, contacting the dead is condemned in the OT, right? But Hebrews 12 says that we are 'surrounded (that is present tense) in our race here by all the 'witnesses' (brothers and sister who have gone before us) and it is like we are in a stadium and the people in the stands are cheering us toward our completion of our race.
Are not the prayers of a righteous man very powerful? Don't you ask spiritually mature people to pray for you when you want people to intercede for you? If I can ask my Christian mother here on earth to pray for me and know that God hears her prayers, why then can't I ask the mother of our Lord to pray for me? This is NOT the same as necromancy. Is God the God of the living or the God of the dead? I am not approaching them instead of Jesus but rather going with them to Jesus, the same as I do with brothers and sisters here on earth.
This prayer for intercession is not worship of saints. It does not detract from the glory of God, in fact, it demonstrates His glory.
I also had difficulty with using a rosary. I thought that this was an example of the vain repetition of prayers that was clearly condemned by Jesus. But here is a thought. When you say to your spouse, 'I love you, sweetheart' throughout the day, do they turn to you and say 'c'mon, that is just vain repetition!' Repitition becomes 'vain' when it is said without meaning. Believe me, before I started to use a rosary I prayed, 'Lord, I really hope what I'm about to do does not offend You, if it does, I ask that the Holy Spirit convict me and show me that it is wrong.' Instead of being convicted, I've experienced great peace and joy.
Unfortunately, as seen over and over on this board, many non-Catholics and former Catholics, have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize the distinction between honoring saints and worshiping the Lord. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God.
Look at the pictures on this thread of people kneeling before a statue. Because a person is praying, it does not mean that he is praying to the statue, just as the fact that someone kneels with a Bible in his hands to pray does not mean that he is worshiping the Bible. Statues or paintings or other artistic devices are used to recall to the mind the person or thing depicted. Just as it is easier to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it is easier to recall the lives of the saints by looking at representations of them.

 

Assist how? With her prayers! '. . . assist the Cardinal Fathers with her maternal solicitude

 

We have Jesus and the Spirit themselves aiding us in our prayers,what can mary do they cannot?

 

Walter, you have truly swallowed all the RCC mumbo jumbo. Your answers about these questions are straight out of "RC indoctrination, 101". May God open your eyes. :tear:

 

She was sinful woman redeemed by the grace of God.
She prayed to "God her Savior" indicating her need of a Savior, inferring her sinfulness.
At the time of the circumcision of Christ, she brought a sin offering for herself, indicating that she knew that she was a sinner.
The last we read about Mary is in Acts one where, as a equal with 120 others she is in an upper room praying. The Apostles, not her, have leadership. She is quiet. Not a peep is heard from her. Only sinners, saved by the grace of God have access to the throne of God. If Mary was not saved she would have no access. One cannot be saved unless they are first lost. Mary has no "maternal" place in heaven. She is not the mother of God. That is blasphemy. She is an equal to all other saints.

When the New Jerusalem will be built there will be twelve names written on the foundations of each wall. Mary's name will not be there. The names will be the names of the apostles. In the NT, she is not elevated. The apostles play a far more important role than she does.

To pray to Mary as the pope did (he "implored her") is idolatry. It does not matter what it was for: 'Maternal solicitude or otherwise, it was praying to Mary, and that is idolatry. It is robbing God of his due worship. It is idolatry, and that is blasphemous.

 

Walter, this is what I want to say to you. It is my hope that threads here on the BB were not instrumental in your decision. First of all, I want to say I am as guilty as anyone. Some of the threads about the RCC turned out like the Calvin-free will threads, no light, only discord. I was taught as Presbyterian, and now a Baptist for many years, as to why we should shun Catholics. This is where most of our information comes from. I doubt ten percent on this board have read the actual RCC documents on doctrine.

You speak of certainty. I can see where you would think from this board there is no common belief system. We have pastors who have been to seminary, have doctorates, and lead local churches arguing amongst themselves. This is especially true of Calvinism, KJVO, covenant theology, etc, and we are all over the map. It is my hope that one day Calvinism threads are banned. (and free will)

One of the most outrageous things is the belief that all Catholics are lost. That is about the stupidest thing I have heard here. I know many Baptists are lost, just from observation.

I am not going to judge or praise your decision, but hope the Lord guides you where you can be used by Him. I also want to apologize if any of my negative posts influenced you. All I can say, speaking for myself, it that I think the Baptist faith comes as close to a Biblical NT church as exists today, or I would not be one. Worshipping saints, Mary, going to priests to confess sins, regenerative baptism, transsubstitution, etc, are all things among many others that I do not agree with in the RCC, but then again, I have not directly read their documents.

God bless you and your family as He leads you.

 

Your answer is exactly what a Hindu would say as he prays before his idol. Do you think that he would be so foolish and naive to say that he is praying to the thing made of wood and stone? No. He prays to the god that the idol (Mary) represents. The Hindu idol Ganesh (the elephant god) represents a god of origins and protection. That is the god that they are praying to, not to the wood itself. Their answer is the same answer that you just gave. Your religion is no better than Hinduism.

"The statues and paintings or other artistic devices are used to recall to the mind the person or thing depicted. Just as it is easier to remember one's mother by looking at her photograph, so it is easier to recall the lives of the saints (read gods), by looking at representations of them."
That is Hinduism.

 

It is wonderful to read such a kind and considerate post! I shared it with my wife after she asked me why I had tears in my eyes.

I believe you genuinely have care and concern for my life in Christ and I want to apologize for statements I made to you on this board that were unkind and rude.

May God bless you and your family also.

 

Here is a Catholic site that has posted dozens of links to "prayers" of different "saints" most of them directed to "saints" or to Mary.
Each one of them, if directed to a so-called saint or to Mary is an act of idolatry.

http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/prayer.php?s=41

 

Walter, from reading your posts, I believe you are a good and sincere person. I wish you had not gone as far as Roman Catholicism. I wish you had stopped at Anglicanism, Lutheranism, or even Eastern Orthodox if you felt a need to depart from the Baptists. But I pray God will be with you wherever you are.

 

This is one of the best posts I have read since I came here. Thank you for it.

 

Walter please understand what the Bible says about prayer.

 

Thank you for your kind words. God bless you!

 

I'll pray for you.

I have only one comment. I believe that the Baptist faith is the closest to the New Testament Church as one can get. If it were not so I wouldn't be one.

 

Exactly my sentiments....& I pray for both you & my Brother Thinking Stuff.

 

Thank you for your and EWF's prayers. They are appreciated. I've followed the thread in the 'General Baptist Discussion' forum regarding my decision to become Catholic. I'm sincerely appreciative of the prayers offered on my behalf and realize that regardless of whether or not I'm making the correct choice, most posters are sincerely concerned about me and my walk with the Lord.

 

Yes, I believe that is true.

Regardless of how much knowledge and truth we think we have, we are all still just stumbling around in faint light.

 

I don't have much time to post or respond to comments today, but I want to share this with the board. I went to mass this morning. I listened and watched at the readings of God's word, prayers and the responses. The Mass is so steeped in scripture. It made the bible come alive! The song was from the Psalms, another prayer had a part of one of the prophets. There were different elements of the ancient Hebrew liturgy in it. It went from the Liturgy of the Word to the Liturgy of the Eucharist. They seemed interconnected and my sense was that the two united to bring about a single act of worship. I sat there having a tremendous desire for the Bread of Life. When the priest pronounced the words of institution and held up the Host, I felt as if any remaining doubt I might have about my decision left me. With all my heart I believed that is truly our Lord under the form of bread and wine.

As I have attended daily mass as often as possible, I have witnessed the entire drama of the Mass and have seen the Covenant renewed right before my eyes. I know Christ wants me to receive Him not only in faith, not just spiritually in my heart, but actual, physical reception onto my tongue as the scripture plainly and explicity points out.

I see the Eucharist clearly foreshadowed in the OT. As I have said before, knowing the Eucharist is the central act of worship in Catholic Churches and that the teaching of the Church has consistantly been that the bread & wine are, in fact, the Living Bread Jesus speaks about in John 6. If it were not, then you would be right about idolatry. Here is just some of the connections between OT & NT regarding the Eucharist, there are many, many more:
(although I have made some of my own observations regarding the verses listed, I obtained this information from a Catholic website)

Gen. 14:18 - I remember as a student at Biola University my OT instuctor pointing out that Melchizedek's bread and wine offering foreshadowed the Lord's Supper (Catholics would also say it foreshadows the sacramental re-presentation of Jesus' offering).



Luke 22:19; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - I understand that the words of institution that Jesus used is "touto poieite tan eman anamnasin." That Christ actually said "offer this as my memorial sacrifice." That the word "poiein" (do) refers to offering a sacrifice (see, e.g., Exodus 29:38-39, where God uses the same word – poieseis –in reference to the sacrifice of the lambs on the altar). The word "anamnesis" (remembrance) also refers to a sacrifice which is actually made present in time by the power of God, as it reminds God of the actual event (see, e.g., Heb. 10:3; Num. 10:10). As a Baptist, I was taught that the Lord's Supper was just a memorial of a past event, but Catholics see it as a past event made present in time.



In other words, the "sacrifice" is the "memorial" or "reminder." I have read that if the Eucharist weren’t a sacrifice, it would have said in Luke's Gospel the word "mnemosunon" (which is the word used to describe a nonsacrificial memorial. See, for example, Matt. 26:13; Mark 14:9; and especially Acts 10:4). So there are actually two memorials, one sacrificial (which Jesus instituted), and one non-sacrificial. Make sense?



Lev. 24:7 - the word "memorial" in Hebrew in the sacrificial sense is "azkarah" which means to actually make present (see Lev. 2:2,9,16;5:12;6:5; Num.5:26 where "azkarah" refers to sacrifices that are currently offered and thus present in time). Jesus' instruction to offer the bread and wine (which He changed into His body and blood) as a "memorial offering" demonstrates that the offering of His body and blood is made present in time and over again. Catholics insist the 'sacrifice of the mass' is not an attempt to re-sacrifice Christ over and over again but to 're-present' the one sacrifice of Christ over and over again.



Num. 10:10 - in this verse, "remembrance" refers to a sacrifice, not just a symbolic memorial. So Jesus' command to offer the memorial "in remembrance" of Him demonstrates that the memorial offering is indeed a sacrifice currently offered. It is a re-presentation of the actual sacrifice made present in time. It is as if the curtain of history is drawn and Calvary is made present to us.



Mal. 1:10-11 - Jesus' command to his apostles to offer His memorial sacrifice of bread and wine which becomes His body and blood fulfills the prophecy that God would reject the Jewish sacrifices and receive a pure sacrifice offered in every place. This pure sacrifice of Christ is sacramentally re-presented from the rising of the sun to its setting in every place, as Malachi prophesied.



Heb. 9:23 - in this verse, the author writes that the Old Testament sacrifices were only copies of the heavenly things, but now heaven has better "sacrifices" than these. Why is the heavenly sacrifice called "sacrifices," in the plural? Jesus died once. The Catholic answer is because, while Christ’s sacrifice is transcendent in heaven, it touches down on earth and is sacramentally re-presented over and over again from the rising of the sun to its setting around the world by the priests of Christ’s Church. This is because all moments to God are present in their immediacy, and when we offer the memorial sacrifice to God, we ask God to make the sacrifice that is eternally present to Him also present to us. Jesus’ sacrifice also transcends time and space because it was the sacrifice of God Himself.



Heb. 9:23 - the Eucharistic sacrifice also fulfills Jer. 33:18 that His kingdom will consist of a sacrificial priesthood forever, and fulfills Zech. 9:15 that the sons of Zion shall drink blood like wine and be saved.



Heb. 13:15 - this "sacrifice of praise" refers to the actual sacrifice or "toda" offering of Christ who, like the Old Testament toda offerings, now must be consumed. See, for example, Lev. 7:12-15; 22:29-30 which also refer to the "sacrifice of praise" in connection with animals who had to be eaten after they were sacrificed.



1 Peter 2:5-6 - Peter says that we as priests offer "sacrifices" to God through Jesus, and he connects these sacrifices to Zion where the Eucharist was established. These sacrifices refer to the one eternal Eucharistic sacrifice of Christ offered in every place around the world.



Rom. 12:1 - I was taught in my Baptist university that Holy Communion is not really the sacrifice of Christ, but a symbolic offering, because the Lord's blood is not shed (Heb. 9:22). However, Paul instructs us to present ourselves as a "living sacrifice" to God. Doesn't this prove to us that not all sacrifices are bloody and result in death (for example, see the wave offerings of Aaron in Num. 8:11,13,15,21 which were unbloody sacrifices). The sacrifice of the mass is unbloody and lifegiving, the supreme and sacramental wave offering of Christ, mysteriously presented in a sacramental way, but nevertheless the one actual and eternal sacrifice of Christ. Moreover, our bodies cannot be a holy sacrifice unless they are united with Christ's sacrifice made present on the altar of the Holy Mass.



1 Cor. 10:16 - "the cup of blessing" or Third cup makes present the actual paschal sacrifice of Christ, the Lamb who was slain.



1 Cor. 10:18 - Paul indicates that what is eaten from the altar has been sacrificed, and we become partners with victim. What Catholic priests offer from the altar has indeed been sacrificed, our Lord Jesus, the paschal Lamb.



1 Cor. 10:20 - Paul further compares the sacrifices of pagans to the Eucharistic sacrifice - both are sacrifices, but one is offered to God. Doesn't this show that the memorial offering of Christ is a sacrifice.



1 Cor. 11:26 - Paul teaches that as often as you eat the bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death and actually proclaiming the Gospel by doing so.



Cor. 10:21 - Here St. Paul uses the phrase "table of the Lord" in celebrating the Eucharist. This would be further evidence that the mass is, in fact, a sacrifice. This is a phrase that the Jews always understood to refer to an altar of sacrifice. See, for example, Lev. 24:6, Ezek. 41:22; 44:16 and Malachi 1:7,12, (table of the Lord means altar of sacrifice)



Heb. 13:10,15 - this earthly altar is used in the Mass to offer the Eucharistic sacrifice of praise to God through our eternal Priest, Jesus Christ.



　

 

Im not surprised brother by this warm and fuzzie Pietism.... that normally happens initially. This fervent devotion is nonetheless more interested in personal experience than sound biblical doctrine.

 

But they aren't dead.

Again, there is a stark difference between asking a LIVING person to pray for you as opposed to praying to a dead person to communicate to God for you.

But I think this was the point made earlier. Doesn't Scripture say to not do this?