My People
Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Walls, Jan 15, 2004.
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Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
I could almost see those shaking that "fist" in the face of God. Demanding forgiveness, looking a gift horse in the mouth. The one who receives is not to look into the mouth of the horse and see he is unhealthy and deny the gift, but after receiving that gift, he would be abusive to not do anything about the "disease" likely to be found. The result being certain pain and discomfort ending in death, even causing others to contract the same disease.Click to expand...
I believe we are almost saying the same thing, Scott, but the biggest difference is that you seem to take a non-chalant approach to dealing with sin.Click to expand...
The statement you have been unable to disprove is that: "No sin that we commit can ever make us unforgiven."
Click to expand...
I could preach for at least the next thousand years on this passage if the Lord gave me breath, never being out of context. Paul is dealing with a specific doctrine here, the one called Repentence.Click to expand...
Yes we are eternally forgiven, but in the like manner as Jesus went into the Holy of Holies and into the Holiest of All, ONCE for all men, that does not mean all men are saved, neither does it mean that we are without sin.Click to expand...
The ideal of sinless perfection is what is eating up the church, it's rooted in carnality, thinking we can sin, but never being sorry that the sin we comit is what nailed Him to the Cross, and having our flippant attitude towards sin, all the while others who don't know Christ are stumbling all over us while they observe our lack of obedience.Click to expand...
Though my intention is not to do battle with you,only the fallacy of failing to realize doctrinal error according to true repentence, this one will most definitely project a ship sinking blow to your bow.Click to expand...
the realm of nettles and thorns again that grace may abound.
Repentence is a continual processClick to expand...
Want your "land" healed? Obey God, humble yourselves and pray, you have that Divine right.Click to expand...
Sorry for such a long post, (no, not reeeeaaaallly), but when the old cup gets to overflowing like this, even the saucer can't contain it all![/QB]Click to expand...Click to expand... -
Scott, I don't know what it's going to get you off this tangent of yours, but I never said one is "unforgiven" after salvation, but a person can have unconfessed sin, which that sin is unforgiven, not the person, that soul that called on Jesus for saving grace.
What I am saying, and have said all along, we do have saving grace, but we don't have "sinning grace".
We are not without sin in our lives, neither you, nor I, nor anyone else. That is the sin which must be confessed and repented of after salvation, else Paul would not have had to deal with it so long in Romans ch. 5-9.
If it will satisfy you, I should use the term: unconfessed, instead of unforgiven, but the two are synominous: unconfessed is yet unforgiven.
If you disagree, then take it up with the Lord and ask Him to remove I John 1:9 along with Romans 6.
Romans 6 is to show the saint his position in Christ, one that doesn't have to obey sin, one that has the "power" within him to overcome the taskmaster of sin. Indicating his passion to serve his "new Master", but his misdirected passions can lead him back into bondage to sin.
Truly we are not in bondage to sin as Christians, His People of the New Testament type, but we can put ourselves under bondage to sin by obeying the lusts of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.
What you seem to be alluding to is a person could be saved one minute and lost again the next. I NEVER said anything like that and it is only your insinuation on the matter that I have. Also I see the concern of yours to be certain others don't believe such error. Though I don't mind discussing it with you, it seems to have become a "hobby-horse" of yours and is become tiresome.
Others have posted in full agreement as I have observed, I cannot make you agree, nor will I demand it.
Our position in Christ is relationship, but our fellowship can become less than desired if we as Christians become "laiden" with willful sins and cause our prayer to be unheard.
David out it quite well, as inspired of course: If I regard iniquity in my heart, He will not hear.
How is it regard is given to sin in a man's heart? Holy Ghost conviction. Ere, since the Holy Ghost convicts us ONLY of sin, how can that not satisfy your desire to settle the matter of yet unconfessed, not yet forgiven, sin, in the heart of the believer?
Methinkest thou must have read too many books and NOT the Bible.
Good day, and God bless. -
Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
[QB] Scott, I don't know what it's going to get you off this tangent of yours, but I never said one is "unforgiven" after salvation, but a person can have unconfessed sin, which that sin is unforgiven, not the person, that soul that called on Jesus for saving grace.Click to expand...
What I am saying, and have said all along, we do have saving grace, but we don't have "sinning grace".Click to expand...
We are not without sin in our lives, neither you, nor I, nor anyone else. That is the sin which must be confessed and repented of after salvation, else Paul would not have had to deal with it so long in Romans ch. 5-9.Click to expand...
If it will satisfy you, I should use the term: unconfessed, instead of unforgiven, but the two are synominous: unconfessed is yet unforgiven.Click to expand...
If you disagree, then take it up with the Lord and ask Him to remove I John 1:9 along with Romans 6.Click to expand...
Romans 6 is to show the saint his position in Christ, one that doesn't have to obey sin, one that has the "power" within him to overcome the taskmaster of sin. Indicating his passion to serve his "new Master", but his misdirected passions can lead him back into bondage to sin.Click to expand...
Truly we are not in bondage to sin as Christians, His People of the New Testament type, but we can put ourselves under bondage to sin by obeying the lusts of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.Click to expand...
Others have posted in full agreement as I have observed, I cannot make you agree, nor will I demand it.Click to expand...
Our position in Christ is relationship, but our fellowship can become less than desired if we as Christians become "laiden" with willful sins and cause our prayer to be unheard.Click to expand...
David out it quite well, as inspired of course: If I regard iniquity in my heart, He will not hear.Click to expand...
How is it regard is given to sin in a man's heart? Holy Ghost conviction. Ere, since the Holy Ghost convicts us ONLY of sin, how can that not satisfy your desire to settle the matter of yet unconfessed, not yet forgiven, sin, in the heart of the believer?Click to expand...
Methinkest thou must have read too many books and NOT the Bible.Click to expand... -
HI HCL! You hit the nail right on the head. God's people must live righteously if the expect blessings of God. We are not a God fearing nation anymore because God's people don't fear God enough to obey His words and commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
It doesn't get any plainer than that! -
Originally posted by Walls:
HI HCL! You hit the nail right on the head. God's people must live righteously if the expect blessings of God. We are not a God fearing nation anymore because God's people don't fear God enough to obey His words and commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
It doesn't get any plainer than that!Click to expand... -
I John 1:9 refers to the first time that a person accepts Christ. When we confess our sins for the first time, he cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness. We still sin, but we are not held spiritually culpable for those sins, based upon the forgiveness of Christ. Romans 6 does not refer to forgiveness.Click to expand...
I don't know where you get trash like that, but it definitely isn't from the Bible! :D
I John, II John, and III John are all written to believers:
I John 1:1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us ;)
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 ¶ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
I stopped there to see if you can understand the passage is dealing with fellowship, that thing which is BROKEN by sin! Uh, sin yet to be confessed because it is yet to be forgiven, Why do you think Jesus told the woman caught in adultry,"Neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more"?
The relationship CAN'T be broken, but fellowship CAN.
I've got to get a shower and get ready to go to church, may I suggest you do the same? -
Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:Click to expand...
In the context, I John 1:9 is about those who accept Christ for the first time - that is when ALL of our unrighteousness is blotted out. The fact that not everyone in I John is a Christian is found in verse 8, which immediately precedes verse 9. They lie and do not know the Truth. Christians certainly cannot "not know" the Truth, because the Truth has set them free. We also see in verse 10 that the plural "us" can mean those who don't know the Word. It's pretty evident to me, and to a myriad of commentators.
In fact, the argument has been made, and rightfully so, that we as Christians, we are to confess our sins to each other. If we see that the passage in I John is understood as we confessing upon salvation, there is no other passage concerning confession after one becomes a Christian, except for those verses that say we are to confess our sins to each other. Interesting, huh? -
In fact, the argument has been made, and rightfully so, that we as Christians, we are to confess our sins to each other.Click to expand...
I can only confess my sins and that is best done by confessing them to the Lord. But then there are those times when I've sinned against my brothers and that is to be done openly.
So are you then admitting that the "we" in this passage can mean them and us, the same as II Chronicles 7:14 can mean Israel natural as well as Israel spiritual?
Make up your mind man, you beginning to look confused.
and here is where you say, "I don't read any other book but the Bible" or something like that.Click to expand...
Many passages are not specifically clear, but the context and harmony according to the entirity of the Bible usually takes away all doubt to what the passage means.
Still, if sins are synco-sematically forgiven, then why should they be confessed the first time? Also, why is it we sin after we're saved, but by your reasoning, they need no repentence, no forgiveness, because the sins after salvation we are not held accountable? But why the need to confess them to other believers? I thought they were already forgiven by what you've said.
How shall we who are dead to sin, continue any longer therein? But I thought we were dead to sin? If we were dead to sin we wouldn't sin, but we know by the passage in Romans 6 were are sometimes made alive to sin, and in need of forsaking that sin to avoid judgement for remaining in that sin.
That puts us in a dilemma, Scott. By the way you see it, I see it that way too, but then I see it the way God sees it and we need to forsake the sin in our lives or else reap corrupion for that sin which corruption is the judgement of God upon sin, that's the reason our flesh has to die since Genesis 6.
It's like I said, you're having a problem with differentiating between the sins of the flesh, and the sins of the spirit, and not that's all, we have the eternal soul to consider.
Being our spirit was dead upon conception, and in need of rebirth, our flesh is born to die, and cannot be saved, and that soul is eternal but in need of redemption. I believe the passage in I John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Since sin is in need of forgiveness, and "Whosoever" is born of God doth not commit sin, what about all these sins that Christians, truly born again Christians commit? As far as the redeemed soul is concerned, he cannot sin, but the flesh does sin because it is at enmity with God, the "born again" spirit can and does sin, and is in need of forgiveness for that sin against God and/ or the brethren, whichever the case. So you are only 33.33333% right. -
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Walls:
HI HCL! You hit the nail right on the head. God's people must live righteously if the expect blessings of God. We are not a God fearing nation anymore because God's people don't fear God enough to obey His words and commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
It doesn't get any plainer than that!Click to expand...
Mr. Emerson,
How do you know China is not being blessed because of the way the believers there obey God? -
Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
I don't need to do that, I already have others that do that for me, and I'm not even sure I did the things they confess to each saying I did them.Click to expand...
I can only confess my sins and that is best done by confessing them to the Lord. But then there are those times when I've sinned against my brothers and that is to be done openly.Click to expand...
So are you then admitting that the "we" in this passage can mean them and us, the same as II Chronicles 7:14 can mean Israel natural as well as Israel spiritual?Click to expand...
Make up your mind man, you beginning to look confused.Click to expand...
I never said that, but you have supposed things like that of me more than once.Click to expand...
I read plenty of commentaries along with my Bible, but I can also see where some very well-meaning men have expressed their passions according to what they saw in the passages but are somewhat wrong. I follow context more than any particular commentator.Click to expand...
Many passages are not specifically clear, but the context and harmony according to the entirity of the Bible usually takes away all doubt to what the passage means.Click to expand...
Still, if sins are synco-sematically forgiven, then why should they be confessed the first time?Click to expand...
Also, why is it we sin after we're saved, but by your reasoning, they need no repentence, no forgiveness, because the sins after salvation we are not held accountable? But why the need to confess them to other believers? I thought they were already forgiven by what you've said.Click to expand...
How shal we who are dead to sin, continue any longer therein? But I thought we were dead to sin? If we were dead to sin we wouldn't sin, but we know by the passage in Romans 6 were are sometimes made alive to sin, and in need of forsaking that sin to avoid judgement for remaining in that sin.Click to expand...
That puts us in a dilemma, Scott. By the way you see it, I see it that way too, but then I see it the way God sees it and we need to forsake the sin in our lives or else reap corrupion for that sin which corruption is the judgement of God upon sin, that's the reason our flesh has to die since Genesis 6.Click to expand...
It's like I said, you're having a problem with differentiating between the sins of the flesh, and the sins of the spirit, and not that's all, we have the eternal soul to consider.Click to expand...
Being our spirit was dead upon conception, and in need of rebirth, our flesh is born to die, and cannot be saved, and that soul is eternal but in need of redemption. I believe the passage in I John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.Click to expand...
Since sin is in need of forgiveness, and "Whosoever" is born of God doth not commit sin, what about all these sins that Christians, truly born again Christians commit? As far as the redeemed soul is concerned, he cannot sin, but the flesh does sin because it is at enmity with God, the "born again" spirit can and does sin, and is in need of forgiveness for that sin against God and/ or the brethren, whichever the case. So you are only 33.33333% right.Click to expand... -
Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
How do you know China is not being blessed because of the way the believers there obey God?Click to expand... -
Yawn. There is no spiritual judgement for sin for those who are in Christ. Their salvation is completely and utterly secureClick to expand...
I have NEVER said anything that hints to our salvation that it isn't fully secure, but I have said plenty in regards to our sanctification and that is what you CANNOT come to terms with.
Any Christian can see the need to be humble in the sight of God and man, to avoid judgement, not eternal damnation, but the resisting due to pride in the life of the Christian, which pride is sin.
The Bible is clear that all Christians should be humble, praying without ceasing.
1 ¶ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty .(Uh, isn't this "peace" evidence of a healed land? Uh, Isn't humility on our behalf necessary to have the perfect fellowship with God so our prayers will be heard and NOT resisted?)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Maybe you really should consider the entire context of James 4, oh why not, the whole Book of James?
Seems anyone with ANY rationality can see that pride causes the Lord to resist them because they fail to be humble.
Again, Fellowship here is the subject, NOT relationship. James is written to Christians, just like every Epistle in the Canon is. -
Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Yawn. There is no spiritual judgement for sin for those who are in Christ. Their salvation is completely and utterly secureClick to expand...
I have NEVER said anything that hints to our salvation that it isn't fully secure, but I have said plenty in regards to our sanctification and that is what you CANNOT come to terms with.
Any Christian can see the need to be humble in the sight of God and man, to avoid judgement, not eternal damnation, but the resisting due to pride in the life of the Christian, which pride is sin.
The Bible is clear that all Christians should be humble, praying without ceasing.
1 ¶ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty .(Uh, isn't this "peace" evidence of a healed land? Uh, Isn't humility on our behalf necessary to have the perfect fellowship with God so our prayers will be heard and NOT resisted?)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Maybe you really should consider the entire context of James 4, oh why not, the whole Book of James?
Seems anyone with ANY rationality can see that pride causes the Lord to resist them because they fail to be humble.
Again, Fellowship here is the subject, NOT relationship. James is written to Christians, just like every Epistle in the Canon is. </font>[/QUOTE]I think that your belief that a Christian can have unforgiven sin has been shown over and over in this thread. Despite your continually trying to change the subject and bring in other points that have nothing to do with that fact, you have still been unable to answer that belief of your from the Scriptures.
As I said four pages ago - the New Testament is very clear on many things. However, this does not make the original verse in question applicable to Christians. We do not need any "extra" forgiveness. Under Christ, "His people" are already forgiven, so there is no way they can be "more forgiven." -
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
How do you know China is not being blessed because of the way the believers there obey God?Click to expand... -
Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Are you familiar with how many are being saved there daily?Click to expand...Click to expand... -
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Are you familiar with how many are being saved there daily?Click to expand...Click to expand... -
Well Scott, since there is pride that causes God to resist us, and that pride is sin, don't you think it's the principle?
Whether you do or not, it would be sin to remain in the state of pride and thereby in need of getting it right w/God, uh, getting it confessed to Him, and uh, forgiveness for the lack of fellowship and obedience on your part. But if you wish to hold to your belief system then that is fine, I want hold to yours though, I choose to keep NOTHING between me and My Saviour.
Now, lets get you to show specifically where no matter what a Christian does, he NEVER has to ask the Lord's forgiveness for sin against Him after salvation? -
Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
Well Scott, since there is pride that causes God to resist us, and that pride is sin, don't you think it's the principle?
Whether you do or not, it would be sin to remain in the state of pride and thereby in need of getting it right w/God, uh, getting it confessed to Him, and uh, forgiveness for the lack of fellowship and obedience on your part. But if you wish to hold to your belief system then that is fine, I want hold to yours though, I choose to keep NOTHING between me and My Saviour.Click to expand...
Now, lets get you to show specifically where no matter what a Christian does, he NEVER has to ask the Lord's forgiveness for sin against Him after salvation?Click to expand...
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. -- We've been sanctified. Completely. Once for all.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: - We have been brought to God. Completely.
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: - we've been sanctified, which is complete. If we were to sin and have unforgiven sin, we would thus be unsanctified, a process which is not found in the Word.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: - We are completely without blame. Utter and complete forgiveness.
So, there we have it. We are completely sanctified upon the reception of Christ as Lord. Nothing can "unsanctify us." We are made holy in His sight, even though we still sin. Do we ever see divine forgiveness being offered to those who are Christians. A quick search will show you the answer. -
Again, forgiveness is total upon confession of Christ at salvation. If you believe that you can have unforgiven sin in your life, then it would appear that you do have something between you and your Savior. What if you miss one? Does it remain unforgiven?Click to expand...
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: - We are completely without blame. Utter and complete forgiveness.Click to expand...
Again the verb is "shall be" and not already are.
We ARE chosen before the foundations of the world, to be holy and without blame, but our sin causes us to be unholy and under blame.
God chose to save sinners, then sanctifiy them, then justify them, and one day we will be glorified! But that process hasn't been completed yet, we are "completely" saved as far as eternity is concerned, but as the old saying goes,"We haven't arrived". I'm already there in Jesus, just waiting on my body to be, hey sounds like a good title to a song, Hmmm?
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: - We have been brought to God. Completely.Click to expand...
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. -- We've been sanctified. Completely. Once for all.Click to expand...
"Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."Click to expand...
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: - we've been sanctified, which is complete. If we were to sin and have unforgiven sin, we would thus be unsanctified, a process which is not found in the Word.Click to expand...
Now why do YOU suppose Paul said he wrote to them and they felt sorry? Then why is it he said they had "cleared themselves"? Reckon the sin going on in the church against each other AND against God?
If they didn't need forgiveness for that sin, then why did Paul say that godly sorrow "worketh" repentence unto salvation, not to be repented of? Reckon it has to do with a continual repentence for revealed sin in our lives , that continual working of the Holy Spirit? Uh, the PROCESS of sanctification? Why sure!
Sorry to get the verse out of order from the way you posted them, I guess I'm just not "perfect", yet! (Uh, neither are you)
Anymore verses you like to try and apply your misconception to?
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