My Position on the Fourth Commandment

I am glad you admit this appearance to Mary was very early in the morning on the first day of the week it was that very same morning on the first day of the week the same women in the very same morning were returning from the tomb when the guards also were going to the city that very same Sunday morning:

Mt 28:11 Now when they [the women] were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.

The guards were those on watch WHEN the earthquake occurred and when the stone was rolled away from the tomb and therefore when Christ arose from out of the grave. We know they were because they are the ones who conveyed to the priests what happened at the grave and these guards were bribed to tell a different story then what they were EYE WITNESSES of!

They could not have been the guards on watch over the tomb the afternoon before (Saturday afternoon) when you suggest Christ arose as that would require us to believe the nonsense that it took all that afternoon and then evening and all the rest of the night for them to leave the tomb and come into the city - STRANGE nonsense indeed!

Your interpretation of Mark 16:9 is proven wrong by Matthew 28:11 as there is no way you can make Matthew 28:11 occur previous to Sunday morning as Matthew says it happened "when" the women left the tomb to go tell the disciples early that same Sunday morning:

8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
11 ¶ Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.

Therefore Mark 16:9 should be read and understood to mean that Christ rose very early on Sunday Morning, the same Sunday morning those guards who were eyewitnessed to the earthquake, removal of the stone and empty tomb came to the city and told the elders "when" the women were also returning to the city to tell the disciples. No amount of mental gymnastics can make the eyewitness guards wait the rest of Satuday afternoon, all Saturday night, after the women had come very early Sunday morning and then "when" they were returning to the city go tell their story to the chief priest? No, That would require STRANGE thinking indeed!

Case closed!

 

Gerard wants us to believe that those guards on watch when the angels rolled the stone away, the earth quake and empty tomb all occurred on late Saturday afternoon before 6 pm.

Therefore, he believes we are gullible enough to believe the same eyewitness guards waited all evening, then all night and then left to tell the preists what they saw not until Sunday morning "when" the women whom he admits came on Sunday morning very early to the tomb about sunrise were going back to the same city to tell the disciples!

Matthew tells us that it was not until Sunday morning "when" the women were returning from the tomb to the city to tell the disciples that these eyewitnesses were also returning to tell the priests.

8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
11 ¶ Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.

No, Christ did not arise late Saturday afternoon! No, the eyewitness guards did not wait all Saturday evening, all Saturday night, after the women returned on Sunday morning to make their report! They made their report early Sunday morning because these events occured prior to sunrise early Sunday morning before the women reached the tomb.

Mark 16:9 pinpoints the time of the resurrection on very early Sunday morning the same morning Jesus appeared first to Mary Magdelene and then later to the women after they had left in fear BEFORE they got to the city precisely the same morning "when" the guards also made their report in the city.

 

GE:

No one is as blind as he who does not want to see.

“They started out in the dark before sunrise _BECAUSE_ they arrived at the tomb at the rising of the sun.” (Emphasis GE)

So it took the women THREE HOURS to “start… out in the dark BEFORE sunrise”, “3 am” as you have several times stated elsewhere, until “they arrived at the tomb at the rising of the sun”, “6 am” as you have elsewhere, several times stated.

THREE HOURS from “3 am” “BEFORE sunrise”, before “all the women”, “arrived at the tomb at the rising of the sun”, “6 am”?!

Were they lame? Crippled?

Rubbish!

There was “only ONE visit … to the tomb by the women” according to Dr Walter.

“Mary did not come alone but was attended by the other Mary's as Matthew 28:2 explicitly states”.

“Matthew 28:2” says, Mary did not come alone but was attended by, quote, “the other Mary”— ONE, “other Mary”. TWO persons. THAT, is “as Matthew 28:2 explicitly states”.

Matthew, you explicit liar!

John states, “comes Mary Magdalene”, one name, Singular Present Verb, one person.

“Mary did not come alone”!

John, you liar!

“All the women but Mary ran scared….”

Did Matthew forget to mention it? Did Mark? Luke?

No, John! Although he doesn’t say “ran” or “scared”.

Not even John can be believed! Yes, NOT ONE of them liars says “All the women but Mary ran scared….”

“Mary had stood behind at the grave…” … that’s John again.

John, you muddled dreamer! You are telling us Mary stood at the grave looked inside, talked to the two angels inside, stood up straight while she turned around and saw Jesus approaching her as she looked at Him, while Dr Walter who should know better tells us “Mary went searching for Christ in the garden”.

“Matthew 28:2 explicitly states as does Mark 16:1-2.”

“Mary did not come alone but was attended by the other Mary's as Matthew 28:2 explicitly states as does Mark 16:1-2.”

Matthew 28:2”, “And behold, there was a great earthquake for the angel of the Lord …”

Is it Matthew, or is it Dr Walter who has his verse divisions incorrect?
No matter…

28:1b,2-4 “… set out Mary and the other Mary to go look at the grave, but suddenly there was a great earthquake the angel of the Lord descending …”
“Mark 16:1-2”, “Now when the Sabbath had gone through Mary Magdalene and Mary of James and Salome, had bought sweet spices that when they would come they could anoint Him. Then very early on the First Day of the week before sunrise they again came to the grave ….”.

Confused deceivers! Not Matthew or Mark says one thing the same as the other, not “explicitly” or implicitly!

Persons:
Matthew 28:1-4, Two Marys
Matthew 28:5-10, “Women”; Mary Magdalene not with them
Mark 16:1, the two Marys and Salome
Mark 16:2-8, unidentified “women”
Luke 24:1,10,22 “women”; named; “some women”
John 20:1, Mary Magdalene
John 20:11, Mary Magdalene

Purpose:
Matthew 28:1-4, “Set out with the intent to go see the grave”
Matthew 28:5-10, “Angel ANSWERED … Ye seek Jesus”
Mark 16:1, At traders, with the intent to buy spices;
Mark 16:2-8, “Arrived (with the intent to) inspect”
Luke 24:1,22, “bringing the spices which they had prepared … found not the body”
John 20:1 “sees” the grave.
John 20:11 “had had stood after weeping … whom seekest thou?”

Circumstance:
Mark 16:1, Three women at traders
John 20:1 “Mary sees stone taken away from sepulchre”
Luke 24:1-9 Opened tomb entered; “found not the body”
Mark 16:2-8, closer details afterwards
John 20:11-17 Mark 16:9, “appeared first to Mary Magdalene”
Matthew 28:1-5a, Other women. New information on Resurrection received
Matthew 28:1-5bf and Jesus’ instructions trough angel.

Angels:

“Sabbath”:
Matthew 28:2-4, “… angel from heaven flung stone from the grave, sat on it”

“After Sabbath”:
Mark16:1, … no angel or angels
John 20:1-2, … no angel or angels

“On the First Day of the week”:
Luke 24:4 Two angels confronting women coming out from the tome
Mark 16:5, “… young man sitting on the right side”
Mark 16:2-8, “at the entrance a young man on right side …”

Sunday, “early”:
John 20:11 (Mark 16:9), “two angels sitting where the body of Jesus had laid”
Matthew 28:5, Outside tomb, “Answered / Explained the angel and told the women … ”

But Dr Walter showed us, all the Gospels’ distinctions and peculiarities and differences are no discrepancies or contradictions, they are purely the Gospel writers’ own interpretations of “Matthew’s "in the end of the Sabbath" and Mark's "after the Sabbath was past"”, “Matthew's use of "dawn" or "light growing" is the same as Mark's "rising of the sun." And that they “are one and the same descriptions of the same time” and of the same event and of the same persons etcetera.

Brilliant, unsurpassable insight into and intuition for the Gospel-Message of Jesus Christ, “I-Am-The-Truth”, in whose mouth there is no deceit.

There are not four separate visits but they started out in the dark BEFORE sunrise because they arrived at the tomb at the rising of the sun. As they were coming to the tomb they felt the earth quake which scared the guards along with the rock being rolled away thus sending the guards scared into the city which the women passed as they were coming to the tomb. Thus the resurrection occurred just before the guards ran to the city and the women came to the tomb, and Mary went to search for Jesus in the garden where Christ met her and then Christ left and met the women and thus all the women then returned to the disciples.

You should publish your New Revelations of John, Matthew, Mark and Luke, Dr Walter, they will be the seal of superiority over ‘The New Revelation’ of Jacob Lorber and Mrs E.G. White’s ‘Desire of the Ages’.

You have once for all proved, “Mark 16:9 explicity states Christ rose early in the morning on the first day ofthe week” and not in any way whatsoever, had to manipulate the text to avoid what it says, “Christ early in the morning on the First Day of the week appeared, risen, to Mary Magdalene, first.”

Now DHK, tell me Dr Walter is not the liar he makes of Matthew as he makes of Mark as he makes of Luke as he makes of John! Tell me!! Four times, times persons and names, times places and circumstances, times events and times, the times INNUMERABLE MATTHEW AND MARK AND LUKE AND JOHN, ARE MADE LIARS OF BY ONE, DR WALTER!!!

 

I have NEVER said any such thing! What I have said is that the resurrection occurred somewhere between the hours of 3am to 6am Sunday morning in keeping with the term "proii". I have NEVER said that the women started out at 3 am in the morning!!!!!

Get some glasses my friend and read what I have said correctly!!

 

No discrepancies between the writers. When you have four different accounts, you will have different emphases. In every account Mary Magdelene is the emphasis while other "women" or other Mary's are but added details.

Again, no discrepancies. Each writer brings to the table different details about the same event.

Again, no discrepancies between accounts, just different emphases of the same event.

Erroneous interpretation by you not by Matthew! Your partial quote is jerked out of context. This was not on the Sabbath but on the first day of the week early in the morning as verse 11 proves as the guards who were present that same Sunday morning who witnessed the resurrection were going that same morning to tell what they had seen.

Artificial contradictions made by your cut and paste jerk out context presentation above. All of the above happened on the very same Sunday morning. Mark 16:1-8 is one narrative and John 20o:11 and Matthe 28 do not contradict it.


IT IS YOUR ARTIFICIAL CUT AND PASTE PRESENTATION THAT MAKE MATTHEW, MARK, JOHN AND LUKE LIARS.
[/QUOTE]

 

GE:

Dr Walter, you quote me as admitting to you being correct and I being wrong.
That is a first infringement on another’s integrity, because I in this quote reacted to DHK; not to you, and that can and does make a world’s difference to logical deducement from and meaning of what I said.

A next bad manner of yours, is your old habit of telling me what I ‘admit’ or do not ‘admit’ while you have no idea of what I ‘admit’ or do not ‘admit’. But you are like an iron post to a blunt axe; I can ask you how courteous or uncivilised, you just shrug off appeal.

Then guaranteed, you shall misquote me, and insult me for having said what you in fact are saying. Like right here!

I wrote in answer to DHK, “Because you do not want the text to read, “Now when Jesus was risen, early the first day of the week he appeared first to Mary Magdalene”; you want it to read, “Now when he had risen early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene…””.

You write,
“I am glad you admit this appearance to Mary was very early in the morning on the first day of the week it was that very same morning on the first day of the week the same women in the very same morning were returning from the tomb when the guards also were going to the city that very same Sunday morning:”

Never mind the broader and bigger false comparison you make, and just look at the single words!

My words as of Mark’s, “Now when Jesus was risen, early the first day of the week he appeared first to Mary Magdalene”. Exactly, word for word, words contained in the KJV of Mark 16:9— even to word-order.

Now your words that allegedly were my words,
“…appearance to Mary … _VERY_ early in the morning on the first day of the week…”— emphasis by GE.

DO YOU see … are you ABLE to see, Dr Walter … do you REALISE Dr Walter, can you COMPREHEND, Dr Walter, do you have the BRAINS to read, Dr Walter, the word, YOU, inserted into what I quoted from the Scriptures?

Are you really a Christian Dr Walter? Because I very much doubt you are a Christian, Dr Walter, the way you give false witness in direct contravention of God’s own Commandment for a Christian man, not to LIE?!

Why do I so rave over one little word?

For VERY good reason, that “very”, is the very word that differentiates TWO, and DIFFERENT, indications of TWO, and DIFFERENT actual times-of-day, in THESE, TWO, specific instances, TWO, and DIFFERENT, actual times so to speak ‘on the clock’, THREE HOURS APART, TWO, and DIFFERENT time-indications WRITTEN DOWN for eternity so eternal as God’s Word shall be eternal, the TWO, and DIFFERENT time-indications found in,

first,

the first in chronology as well as first in context indicative-of-time-statement in Mark 16:2, “_VERY_ early in the morning on the first day of the week…”; and

next,

the later in chronology as well as later in context indicative-of-time-statement in Mark 16:9, “early the first day of the week…”—

two, and different, ACTUAL, REAL, times so to speak ‘on the clock’, three hours apart, and, “WRITTEN” … which Dr Walter does not, confuse, but intentionally — ever so covertly ever so blatantly — IDENTIFIES and SINGULARIZE, thus making not only the two, and different, ACTUAL, REAL times, and time-descriptions, one-and-the-same time and time-description, but making one-and-the-same two, and different, actual, real, EVENTS – the events of THOSE, TWO, and DIFFERENT, actual and real times and faithful and true time-descriptions.

In a word, Dr Walter commits fraud; not just fraud, but fraud against the Scriptures-Word of God. So his fraud becomes fraud from against me, Mr Nobody, to fraud against the Scriptures, to fraud against Truth, to fraud committed against God.

Are you a Christian, Dr Walter? Because I can bring my message only to your senses if you are a Christian man, and it does not seem that I am able to bring anything to your senses.

 

[/QUOTE]

GE:

O, I LOVE this!

 

In your discussion with DHK you agreed that Mary Magdalene and the other women did come very early on Sunday morning in Matthew 28:2. You admitted that in Mark 16:9 it was Mary unto whom Jesus appeared to on the first day of the week according to the punctuation you gave that passage.

I merely pointed out that the same women who went to the tomb early Sunday morning in Matthew 28:2 are the same women "when" returning to the city were coming to the city also "when" the guards who were eyewitnesses of the removal of the stone and empty tomb came to the city to tell the priests - thus proving the resurrection occurred early Sunday morning and not Saturday late afternoon.


Reader take special note that my good friend Gerhard NEVER addressed the difficulty I placed in front of him now three times but rather misdirects the readers to trivial matters to escape the force of the evidence before him.

 

All the discrepancies are MANUFACTURED by your chosen LABELS over your cut and paste peicemeal quotes and twisting of terms.

 

There is no discrepancy of TIME between Matthew 28:1-2 and Mark 16:1-2 except for what is MANUFACTURED by Gerard.

Mt. 28:1 ¶ In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Mrk 16:1 ¶ And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

Both say the sabbath ended and what follows the end of the Sabbath day is the first day of the week. So also, the early morning on the first day of the week comes after the Sabbath has ended. Matthew uses the term "dawn toward" which translates a Greek word that literally means "growing of light" whereas Mark says "at the rising of the sun" when the "growing of light" occurs.

Absolute proof they are the SAME TIME event is that Matthew says they came to "see" the suplchre and Mark says they were wondering how the stone would be rolled away:

Mark 16:3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.

If Matthew 28:1 occurred when Gerard says, late afternoon on the Sabbath day AFTER the resurrection then they would have seen already that the stone had been rolled away and never need to ask this question in Mark 16:3-4 on Sunday morning and yet Mark 16:3-4 demands this was their first trip to the tomb as they were still wondering how the stone would be moved. Hence, they are one and the same visit early Sunday morning at the rising of the Sun when they arrived.

Moreover, Greek scholars are divided over the meaning of "in the end" of the Sabbath. Some say it is a common expression to mean "going out of the Sabbath" or after the Sabbath has ended (Lightfoot, Broadus) while others take Gerards view. However, the facts of the immediate context prove that Gerard and A.T. Robertson are wrong on the meaning of the term and Lightfoot and Broadus are correct.

 

Mt. 28:8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
11 ¶ Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.


In addition to the timing problem encountered by Mark's comments in Mark 16:3-4 proving that the women had not previously been to the tomb and thus Matthew 28:1-2 is the same event as Mark 16:1-2, Gerard has the additional contextual difficulty that the same women who went to the tomb in Matthew 28:2 are the same women who left the tomb "when" the eyewitness guards also were on their way back to the city to report what they saw - stone rolled away, empty tomb, angels, earthquake or as Matthew says "all these things."

Hence, this proves that the resurrection occured very early Sunday morning in the dark between 3am and 6am before the women arrived at the tomb as the guards who had witnessed "all these things" did not leave the tomb SATURDAY AFTERNOON or SATURDAY NIGHT but only very early Sunday Morning only arriving to report "when" the women began to leave the tomb to go back to the city to give their report.

Hence, Gerard's whole contrived chronology is wrong! Mark 16:9 does mark the precise time when Christ arose - "proii" or between 3am to 6am very early Sunday morning before Mary Magdalene arrived at the tomb with the other women.

 

[/QUOTE]


GE:
Typical Dr Walter!
He tells me what I did, that I presented contradictions. He tells me what I did, that I with cut and paste jerked out of context presentations from the Gospels, made up artificial contradictions.
The man is a compulsive liar, man!
I presented non-contradictory quotes from the Gospels, for the purpose of emphasising the reliability and trustworthiness of each and every Gospel anecdote on the different but never differing events and particulars of that night on the First Day of the week,
namely,
1)… the first glimpse of the opened tomb “while still being early darkness”;
2)… the discovery of the emptied tomb by the women while they came to embalm the body of Jesus “deepest morning-of-night” just after midnight;
3)… certain women’s re-assessment-visit at about “3 am” “VERY early of before-sunrise-morning”, when they fled and told nobody anything;
4)… Mary Magdalene’s “stayed standing outside the tomb” ‘visit’, when Jesus approached her and appeared to her before anyone, “first”, sunrise by the time a gardener might begin his day’s work;
5)… and the visit on Sunday morning when the other women must have had returned to the grave a last time and the angel answered their questions on the events around the Resurrection “on the Sabbath Day” before, after which visit Jesus met them on their way to tell the disciples about the angel’s happy news.
Not a single contradiction copied or pasted from any Gospel, or contrived by myself! But Dr Walter accuses me of such fraud!
You are very unfair, Dr Walter!

 

It was YOUR LABELS and YOUR DIVISIONS and YOUR EXPLANATIONS that present a false picture and I have proved it in the last two posts:

1. Matthew 28:1-2 and Mark 16:1-2 must be the same event BECAUSE if Matthew 28:1-2 preceded Mark 16:1-2 as you demand then the women would never said what Mark reported them saying in Mark 16:3-4. Therefore, Mark 16:3-4 proves that Mark 16:1-2 was their FIRST visit to the tomb.

2. Matthew 28:11 proves that Matthew 28:1-2 occurred early on Sunday morning rather than split between late Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning BECAUSE the eyewitness guards went to report what they say "when" the women in Matthew 28:2 went back to the city to report what they had seen - SUNDAY MORNING. Gerards contrived chronology would have us believe these eye witness guards would not have left the tomb late Saturday afternoon to report what they saw, nor left Saturday night to report what they sawy but waited until the next day to report what they saw. However, Matthew infers they had left the tomb to report what they just experienced on Sunday morning.


GE:
Typical Dr Walter!
He tells me what I did, that I presented contradictions. He tells me what I did, that I with cut and paste jerked out of context presentations from the Gospels, made up artificial contradictions.
The man is a compulsive liar, man!
I presented non-contradictory quotes from the Gospels, for the purpose of emphasising the reliability and trustworthiness of each and every Gospel anecdote on the different but never differing events and particulars of that night on the First Day of the week,
namely,
1)… the first glimpse of the opened tomb “while still being early darkness”;
2)… the discovery of the emptied tomb by the women while they came to embalm the body of Jesus “deepest morning-of-night” just after midnight;
3)… certain women’s re-assessment-visit at about “3 am” “VERY early of before-sunrise-morning”, when they fled and told nobody anything;
4)… Mary Magdalene’s “stayed standing outside the tomb” ‘visit’, when Jesus approached her and appeared to her before anyone, “first”, sunrise by the time a gardener might begin his day’s work;
5)… and the visit on Sunday morning when the other women must have had returned to the grave a last time and the angel answered their questions on the events around the Resurrection “on the Sabbath Day” before, after which visit Jesus met them on their way to tell the disciples about the angel’s happy news.
Not a single contradiction copied or pasted from any Gospel, or contrived by myself! But Dr Walter accuses me of such fraud!
You are very unfair, Dr Walter!

[/QUOTE]

 

GE:
Typical Dr Walter!
He tells me what I did, that I presented contradictions. He tells me what I did, that I with cut and paste jerked out of context presentations from the Gospels, made up artificial contradictions.
The man is a compulsive liar, man!
I presented non-contradictory quotes from the Gospels, for the purpose of emphasising the reliability and trustworthiness of each and every Gospel anecdote on the different but never differing events and particulars of that night on the First Day of the week,
namely,
1)… the first glimpse of the opened tomb “while still being early darkness”;
2)… the discovery of the emptied tomb by the women while they came to embalm the body of Jesus “deepest morning-of-night” just after midnight; [/QUOTE]
3)… certain women’s re-assessment-visit at about “3 am” “VERY early of before-sunrise-morning”, when they fled and told nobody anything;

If they had their first "glimpse" into the tomb Saturday evening they would have know the stone had been moved already but Mark 16:3-4 demonstrates that Mark 16:1-2 was their first visit as they were still discussing who would move the stone!!!!!

If this was a "re-assessment-visit" as you imagine, then they would have already seen and known the stone had been moved but Mark 16:3-4 says at the time of their visit in Mark 16:1-2 they did not see or know the stone had been removed. Hence, Mark 16:1-2 and Matthew 28:1-2 are one and the same visit just with differing details.

Matthew 28:11 proves this is wrong! The guards who actually saw the stone rolled back, felt the earth quake, witnessed and empty tomb fled the site and reported "all these things" back to the city the same time "when" the women were returning to the city (Mt. 28:8-11). Hence, the resurrection occurred after 3am in the fourth watch of the night just before the women came to the tomb as the women were fleeing the tomb back to the city the same time "when" the eyewitness guards where reporting back to the city - ON SUNDAY MORNING

The truth is that the other women fled but Mary stayed behind at the Garden seeking the whereabouts of her Lord while the other women fled. After appearing to Mary the Lord then intercepted the women in their flight and reaffirmed what the angels had commanded them and told them.

 

GE:


Re:
Dr Walter,
“In addition to the timing problem encountered by Mark's comments in Mark 16:3-4…”

Dr Walter accuses me of making artificial contradictions; but what does he do, here? He asserts there exists “the timing problem encountered by Mark's comments in Mark 16:3-4”.

I am afraid, I do not encounter any timing problem in, or, caused by, Mark's comments in Mark 16:3-4.

In fact, I do not even encounter as much as a reference to time in Mark's comments in Mark 16:3-4. Not even implied or deduced or whatever— NONE!

So just who makes the timing problems encountered in this discussion?!

And who is it who finds timing problems are “proving” anything constructive? Is it in the nature of encountered timing problems to prove “the women had not previously been to the tomb”? Or is it in the nature of encountered factual statements of ‘timing’ that it could be proved “the women had not previously been to the tomb”, such as, that not even Mary Magdalene, knew that the grave was opened? Or, such encountered factual statement as that the women came to the tomb, “bringing the spices which they had prepared with them”?

How on earth for Pete’s sake, can the TOTALLY IMAGINED “additional contextual difficulty … that the same women who went to the tomb in Matthew 28:2 are the same women who left the tomb "when" the eyewitness guards also were on their way back to the city … prov(e) that the women had not previously been to the tomb and thus Matthew 28:1-2 is the same event as Mark 16:1-2”?!
Easy!
First,

By making it “Gerard’s”, “additional contextual difficulty”— Dr Walter’s full-prove proving of and proof for every additional contextual difficulty he had to face himself because of his own one-only-visit- approach and –proof.
Pass the buck! As easy as that.

Next,
By fabricating and presenting another of Dr Walter’s "closed", proven and sealed selections of non-facts, here, quote, “…the same women who went to the tomb in Matthew 28:2 are the same women who left the tomb "when" the eyewitness guards also were on their way back to the city to report what they saw - stone rolled away, empty tomb, angels, earthquake or as Matthew says "all these things."”

I say, selection of non-facts. That means, a selection of lies, as if the more lies like sticks bound together, the better the chance one might start blossoming and bear fruits of yet more lies. The lies-blossoming stick will certainly be the one called ‘Eyewitness guards-Gibbet’. His off-spring are called ‘The same women-Rod’ and ‘16:1-2 > 3-4 > 28:1-2 Forked Stick’.
Matthew does NOT “say”, “all these things”, and Matthew does NOT “say”, “all these things” as were it Mark 16:1-2 = 3-4 = Matthew 28:1-2 = ‘The same women’, even the “stone (seen) rolled away”.

Dr Walter, stop increasing iniquity!

“All these things that happened” were ONLY those things the guards actually saw, and they actually saw NOTHING because they were instantaneously “struck down unconscious convulsing like dead men” by the brilliance of the descending angel’s appearance.

Neither saw the women anything that happened according to “Matthew 28:1-2”, because “the angel ANSWERED” them on their enquiry into the events of the Resurrection, about the things specifically “INFORMED” them “of the Sabbath”.

“All these things that happened” in Matthew 28:11 in NO manner whatsoever ‘prove’ anything “that happened”

in Matthew 28:1 “on SABBATH’S mid-afternoon BEFORE the First Day of the week”;

or, ‘prove’ anything “that happened”
between from Mark 16:1 “after the Sabbath” and John 20:1 “while still early darkness on the First Day” Saturday evening until John 20:15 SUNRISE;

or, ‘prove’ anything “that happened”
from and including Luke 24:1-10 after midnight “deepest morning-of-night” until Mark 16:2 to 9 “very early before-sunrise on the First Day of the week”;

or, ‘prove’ anything “that happened”
in Matthew 28:10, AFTER sunrise.

“All these things that happened” in Matthew 28:11, does NOT “prove” the things that happened, happened
with or to “all the women”; happened
at only one visit of “all the women”; happened
at once during between “3 am” and “6 am”; happened
when Christ also first appeared to Mary Magdalene; or happened
as the guards looked on, on “all these things that happened” happening; and
“also were on their way back to the city to report what they saw -”—
which is what you, Dr Walter, claim the guard’s reference, “all the things that happened”, “proves”.

No; it is an umpteenth LIE of yours and a disgrace to the Christian faith of your profession!

 

The false accusations, derogatory language, and offensiveness of such posts as this one, Gerhard, must stop immediately. I may post this one as an example in the forum for the Administrators to look at.

If you are going to continue to post here you must stop calling people liars and other such names. Please read the rules that are posted at the bottom of each page.

 

GE:

Explain :

How, according to you, Jesus appeared to Mary first, after the guards were the eyewitnesses of his resurrection?

How the guard "actually saw the stone rolled back" but they "witnessed an empty tomb"? Did Christ rise before he rose?!

How the guard was struck down like dead men, yet they "fled the site"? Borne on chariots of fire?!

How the guard was struck down like dead men, yet they "reported "all these things" back? Dead men do tell tales?!

How the guard claimed they slept while they "the same time "when" the women were returning", "reported back to the city"? The guards trusting fearing Jews and women knowing better? Deceit, deceit’s only trust!

How we, "hence" – i.e., from the guard's alleged "actually (seeing) the stone rolled back" –, know,
“the resurrection occurred after 3am”?
“the resurrection occurred … just before the women came to the tomb” …?

But we from the fact Matthew actually recorded NOTHING of the sort, as well as from the guard’s having been “struck down convulsing like dead men unconscious”, dare not know the guard actually “saw” NOTHING, “felt” NOTHING, “witnessed” NOTHING, and “fled”, NOWHERE?!

The art of lying is a crafty art.

So, certainly “the guards reported back to the city - ON SUNDAY MORNING”.
Who denied it?

And yes, “the truth is that the other women fled but Mary stayed behind” John 20:11 and Mark 16:8— but stayed behind at the tomb right next to its door-opening, weeping— not “at the Garden seeking the whereabouts of her Lord”.

And not “while the other women fled”, but some three hours after “Mary Magdalene had had stood after”, ‘heistehkei’ Plusquam Perfectum.

Also yes, “After appearing to Mary the Lord then” a little later “suddenly met” the other women. But He did not “intercept” them, “in their flight” from the tomb of about three hours earlier Mark 16:8.

Nor did He “reaffirmed what the angels had commanded them and told them”, but He confirmed what the angels had commanded them and told them by having met them in Person, The-Risen.

Just like He did a little while ago when He “appeared to Mary Magdalene first, The-Risen.”

 

Your questions are irrational. Matthew 28:11 explicitly tells you that they reported "all things" they had witnessed - your argument is with Matthew not me.

You tell me why the High preists paid them to say their disciples stole the body if the guards had not seen the tomb was empty????

They were told to report they slept at the time of the incident.

You are just doing a tap dance to avoid the problems placed before you! Just simply be honest enought to admit your wrong.

 

The timing problem is not with Matthew but with YOUR theory and what Matthew states. Your theory states the resurrection occurred late Saturday afternoon but Matthew 28:2-4 with Mathew 28:11 prove otherwise! How?

It proves that resurrection occurred sometime after 3am on Sunday morning because the guards were reporting back to the city all the things they witnessed "when" the women were also returning to the city to report to the apostles. Both were going to the city on Sunday morning NOT LATE SATURDAY AFTERNOON or SATURDAY NIGHT.

The Bible does not say they were "dead" but rather became "AS" dead men. They were paid to say the body was stolen but that would be unnecessary unless they also reported the tomb was empty!!!!! Hence, they knew the tomb was empty and the body was not there.

Your attempting to ignore the evidence and misdirect the discussion. Mark 16:3-4 explicitly states that the EARLY SUNDAY MORNING SUNRISE TRIP entertained the discussion about moving the stone from the grave. IF as you believe, they had already been to the tomb on a previous visit on Saturday evening, which according to your theory the stone had already been removed then they would not be discussing how to remove the stone IF Mark 16:1-2 was not their first visit!!! Hence, your theory is wrong. Mark 16:1-2 is their FIRST visit to the tomb because they still believed the stone was in front of the tomb - thus they believed Christ was still in the tomb. Period!

Mt. 28:11 ¶ Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.

Now, what does Matthew in the above verse state that the some of the watch "SHEWED" unto the priests? "ALL THINGS THAT WERE DONE"!

What was the response of the cheif priest to being SHEWED...ALL THINGS THAT WERE DONE??? It was to pay them to say the body had been stolen! Why pay them to say that unless part of the "ALL THINGS" shewed was that they witnessed an EMPTY tomb???????!!!!!!!!

"NOTHING" - really? Then why pay them to say his disciples stole the body if they did not report that the tomb was empty??????????

The text does not say they were dead!!!! It says that they became "AS" dead - meaning they could not move not that they could not hear and see what they reported.

IF as you claim the women had ALREADY been to the tomb Saturday Evening AFTER the resurrection occured late Saturday afternoon, they knew the tomb was empty (Mt. 28:4-5) and Christ was not there and therefore Mark 16:1-2 could not have been a SECOND or ANOTHER visit to the tomb since in Mark 16:3-4 they were still discussing who would move the stone. Hence, Mark 16:1-4 is their FIRST VISIT believing the stone was still covering the tomb and Christ was still in the tomb. It is just that simple.

Stop avoiding the issues and deal frankly with the evidence!!!

1. The resurrection occured sometime after 3am Sunday morning as the guard left the scene the same morning to report back to the city the same morning "when" the women left the scene to report back to the city. The guards left the scene first and then the women left - Mt. 28:4-11

2. Mark 16:1-2 must refer to the FIRST visit by the women to the tomb as they still believed Christ was still in the tomb and the stone still in front of the door of the tomb (Mk. 16:3-4) and therefore Matthew 28:1-11 is the same visit as Mark 16:1-4.

 

Re:
DW,
“The guards …. conveyed to the priests what happened at the grave and these guards were bribed to tell a different story then what they were EYE WITNESSES of!”

GE:

The guards and Jews didn’t agree that the guards must “spread the story” about anything that really happened “mid-afternoon on the Sabbath Day” before. They could not because they knew not because they saw not. They would tell only what they really knew because they had really seen it, and because it could not be denied by anyone in the world because it was there for everyone to see. So the guard would tell what they already knew and everyone else soon would learn to know, only, that the tomb was opened and empty.

The guards were unable to know anything more because they saw no more. They did not even see any of the smaller things which Peter and John had noticed. When the guard came by again, they must have received the fright of their lives, and didn’t bother to pay attention to anything but their own safety now. So, they could tell what they really were eyewitnesses of and no more— EXCEPT what could not be denied by anyone in the world because nobody was there to see for himself.

How would the guard get away with their story? Exactly by knowing the first question from anyone to them, would be, But how is that possible? Were you not on duty, guards? Were you sleeping on duty, guards?

The Romans and the Jews saw their gap— nobody else actually saw, so nobody else could ever deny. And they decided to lie about something no one would be able to prove them liars, and both the guards and the priests would save face.

THEY LIED:
Yes, we slept! Of course, after duty; what do you think, we would sleep on duty? We finished our watch, the whole of Saturday, from we were stationed on Saturday morning (Matthew 27:62), until midnight last night when Saturday and our watch expired! We earned our little nap, “those” who liked to, and didn’t leave there and then after they had come by again. No one can accuse them, and they would certainly never admit to have slept on duty! We slept, yes, and “while we slept, his disciples came by night and stole him!”— “while we slept”, in our rights!

The LIE, put into their mouths by the two scared to life high priests Annas and Caiaphas, in the high priest’s private palace, PAID OFF with “large money” in the pockets of “some of the guard” who dared challenge the cowards. And they delectably went their way. They scored; the rest of the guard gained nothing, but also, lost nothing.

And that explains why, first, “it being early darkness still, comes Mary Magdalene and sees the stone taken away from the tomb” John 20:1, seeing nothing else but a deserted place!

And why, also, in Luke 24 the women, see verse 10, Saturday night “deep(est) morning on the First Day of the week came unto the sepulchre bringing the spices which they had prepared”.

They came THEN, because by midnight they knew, the Roman guard’s watch would be over, and they would be permitted into the sepulchre.

And they CAME then at all and despite Mary Magdalene’s suspicion after her first sight of the removed door stone that “They have taken away the Lord’s body out of the grave”, because they must have thought Jesus’ body was in the grave STILL.

Now this lie spread around among unbelievers to this day, confirms something else that even believers, to this day do not understand, and when they understand, usually deny non the less because they believe a Sunday resurrection.

It is this TRUTH the REAL “deceivers” the JEWS, perfectly realising, witnessed to “on the morning after The Preparation" : the TRUTH, "after three days I will rise again … Command _THEREFORE_ that the sepulchre be made sure until _THE THIRD DAY_ is over….”

The morning after The Preparation” is “On the Sabbath Day”; and the Sabbath Day the morning after The Preparation was “THE THIRD DAY”, both “according to the Scriptures” and the assurance of Jesus Christ HIMSELF.

Which is why Matthew in 28:1f, UNINTERRUPTEDLY CONTINUES with this real history of THIS VERY one and only Sabbath Day in the history of Jesus Christ,
“DESPITE (‘de’)”, the sealing and the guarding of the sepulchre that morning after The Preparation, “SABBATH’S, there was a great earthquake”, and God raised Christ from the dead by the exceeding greatness of the power of his resurrection.