Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
I think this promise of a redeemer gets about as close to the beginning as we can get.
Nowhere is it written that understanding is an additional requirement to repentance in faith. What is essential is a broken heart and contrite spirit.
Psa 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
Mystery
Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by psr.2, Jul 15, 2004.
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Paul says in Romans 4 that Abraham, David, and us are all saved the exact same way: faith alone in the God who justifies.
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Daniel if you never move along in your bible you cannot possibly grow in knowledge. Did you read any of the references posted that explained what salvation was in the O.T.?
If all you are interested in is an arguement then find it somewhere else. If discussing scripture is what you want then talk scripture. -
quote from MTA;
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
psr.
Be honest MTA. If that was all you had to go by today would you be saved?
Suppose you were witnessing to someone and asked if they were saved. That person then quoted that verse. Would you walk away convinced they were saved? I hope not.
Sure that is a great verse for us looking back but keep in mind it wasn't written until Moses.
What about all of the people from Adam to Moses?
I'll tell you. They were obedient to what God told them to do.
MTA
I think this promise of a redeemer gets about as close to the beginning as we can get.
Nowhere is it written that understanding is an additional requirement to repentance in faith. What is essential is a broken heart and contrite spirit.
psr
The bible does say to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If you do not understand who Jesus Christ is you cannot believe on him.
Many people in the bible were broken and contrite but were not saved.
Judas for example after he betrayed Christ. He was so broken and contrite after what he had done he gave the money back and killed himself.
He also went to hell.
MTA
Psa 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. -
You know, I'm not sure what it is we are debating?
We all know that the Scripture was a progressive revelation. Each "age" was to have faith in Jehovah-Elohim and His revealed truth.
A Savior/Messiah was coming.
Adam and Eve and their progeny knew Him as the seed of the woman who would crush the head of the serpent. Job called Him his Redeemer.
What matters right now in the here and now is "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved".
HankD -
As long as you keep blowing over what Paul said, I will just keep posting it. Paul says that people are saved the exact same way regardless of when they lived. Sorry about that.
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Daniel, read carefully and s-l-o-w-l-y. Paul was not alive nor was he writing books of the bible during Abrahams life.
Paul does not say what you claim. In fact he states that the mystery that was not known in other ages was revealed to him.
Romans 16:25 25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Key words "kept secret"
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Paul again
Eph. 3:3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Paul again
Eph. 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Now there is the truth from the scripture Daniel. Your fight is with God if you deny it. If you continue with your no scripture based arguement I will just ignore it. The scripture I posted is very plain to someone seeking the truth.
How long have you been saved and how much time have you spent actually studying the scripture?
The reason I ask is because it seems you are in a discussion way over your head and that leads to your angry posts. -
If you want to discuss an issue, DISCUSS THE ISSUE. Don't insult every single individual who happens to comment. I know that I am glad that you and I are not discussing face to face...**slurs edited***
In Christ,
Trotter
[ July 19, 2004, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ] -
Eph 3
1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles--
2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you;
3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.
4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
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1. Who was given the mystery?
His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit
2. What is the mystery?
to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel
3. When was it given?
which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles
Good grief. The mystery is that Jews and Gentiles would be fellow heirs in one body, the church. It is the church that is the mystery, not a new way of getting saved. How silly. -
Wow Trotter what a display of Christian maturity.
Once again a perfect example of frustration due to not being able to show ones belief from scripture.
Note that I did report the post to the board not due to fear but out of consideration to some who could consider your post a stumbling block.
Now Trotter if you have anuthing biblical that you would care to discuss I welcome the opportunity. In fact I'll allow you to pick the scripture and you and I can proceed one on one. -
OK Daniel now you have left Rom 4 which you demanded that I address. I addressed it in a way which you could not possibly refute so now you jump to Eph.
Just to show that I can be mature unlike Trotter I will answer your question.
The mystery of the gospel being given to the gentiles (who by the way up until this point were considered dogs by all Jews including the Saviour) is much deeper than this short passage but since you have asked let's deal with it.
Think with me. Prior to the death burial and resurrection of the Saviour what was the set-up
for dealing with sin as far as God was concerned?
If you guessed the law and sacrificesb you were right.
Now. Is that how you deal with your sin?
Do you sacrifice goats to God?
If you guess no you are right.
So.What changed? If you guessed that we are under a different testament you are right.
That is the entire reason for this thread. The fact that there was in fact a different gospel in other time periods.
Now stay with me. Did you know that in the future people will go back under a O.T. set-up with the law and sacrifices and feasts?
Well they will. Don't take my word for it take God's.
Col. 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
There God's word is saying that in the future somewhere after the rapture of the body of Christ that the O.T. set-up will be back.
See what just a little studying will teach you.
So before you call someones doctrine silly take some time to check it out with all scripture. -
The New Testament Mysteries point to
the veracity of the pretrib rapture position.
1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
"Why do you speak to them in parables?"
11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
not been given.
The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29
I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
describe the Church Age. The Church Age
goes from Pentacost to Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
This period in HIS-story can also be called
"the age of the gentiles".
2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age
Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
For I do not desire, brethren, that you
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
in part has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26. And so all Israel will be saved,
I've had several interesting discussions
with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
prospects that when the last possible gentile
(Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.
3. Mystery of the Rapture
1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
but we will all be changed -- ...
1 Thessalonians 4:14,16
Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
looking for the blessed hope and
glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
Christ
Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib
when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
for after the tribulation there will only be a few
handfuls of living saints.
4. Mystery of His Will
Ephesians 1:9-12 (NIV)
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according
to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times will have
reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things
in heaven and on earth together under one head,
even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having
been predestined according to the plan of him who
works out everything in conformity with
the purpose of his will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in
Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
May God's will be done!
From Eternity past God has intended
to bring all things together in Christ.
This joining inclues the gentile church and
the race of Yisrael. At the pretribulation
rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.
5. Mystery of Christ:
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel
ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):
2 Surely you have heard about the administration
of God's grace that was given to me for you,
3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
as I have already written briefly.
4 In reading this, then, you will be able
to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to men in other generations
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
to God's holy apostles and prophets.
6 This mystery is that through the gospel
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers
together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
gift of God's grace given me through the working
of his power.
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
people, this grace was given me: to preach to
the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
of this mystery, which for ages past was
kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church,
the manifold wisdom of God should be made
known to the rulers and authorities in
the heavenly realms,
11 according to his eternal purpose
which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 In him and through faith in him
we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
define "mystery".
The gentile church and the race of Yisrael
are joint heirs of God's promise to Abraham.
At the pretribulation rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then He uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.
6. Mystery of Church the Bride of Christ
Ephesians 4:30b-33 (NIV):
for we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man will leave his father
and mother and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh."
32 This is a profound mystery--but I
am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must
love his wife as he loves himself,
and the wife must respect her husband
Revelation 19: (NIV):
Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear."
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)
Does Jesus take his Bride out of the world
before the "wedding of the Lamb" (pretrib)
or after the "wedding of the Lamb" (postrib)?
7. Mystery of the Indwelling Christ in Believers
John 15:4 (NIV)
Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself;
it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
Galations 2:20 (NIV)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no
longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live
by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me.
Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV)
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages
and generations, but is now disclosed
to the saints.
27 To them God has chosen to make known
among the Gentiles the glorious
riches of this mystery, which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Woah! Christianity has the other mystery religions
beatten hands down! Christ who is God dwells
within each saint!
What glory is there in the Pretribulation Rapture?
ALL GLORY!
What glory is there in dragging into the Tribulation?
8. Mystery of God, Even Christ
Colossians 2:2b (nKJV):
attaining to all riches
of the full assurance of understanding, to the
knowledge of the mystery of God, both of
the Father and of Christ,
1 Chrinthians 2:7 (nKJV):
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
the hidden wisdom which God ordained
before the ages for our glory.
Interesting, "before the ages". Well, then if
this wisdom of God was before the ages, it is
certainly before the Church Age.
And the infinite knowledge of God is incarnate
in Christ. And the infinite wisdome of God
which was incarnate in Christ is "for our glory".
How is it for our glory, we the saints of the Living
God, if have to traspe through the Tribulation
as some nay-sayers promote?
9. Mystery of Inquity/Lawlessness
This mystery deals with Satan's ongoing
master plan to bring forth the Antichrist
in the End Times, yet the outcome is clear.
Will Jesus let His Church be around when
the Antichrist is punished on the earth?
2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a (nKJV):
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at
work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, ... "
Interesting, this mystery is explained in the
pretribulation rapture book of the Bible:
2 Thessalonians. We repeat the timeline shown
in 2 Thessalonains that is clearly specified there:
1. The Church Age (with it's tribulation)
2. Day of Christ:
-2a. falling away; our gathering together to Him;
--removal of the restrainer
-2b. the revelation of the man of sin
-2c. the period of deception; the Tribulation
-2d. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
-2e. the destruction of the man of sin
2 Thessalonians 3:2 (nKJV):
But the Lord is faithful, who will establish
you and guard you from the evil one.
And this is all summed up in one word:
'\o/' Maranatha! '\o/'
10. Mystery of Godliness
1 Timothy 3:16 (nKJV):
And without controversy great
is the mystery of Godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
And that is just what God had done up
to the time of the writing.
Later He will:
Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
Return to earth at the Second Advent
Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
Rule the earth on the Throne of David.
11. Mystery of the Seven Stars/Candlesticks
Revelation 1:20 (nKJV):
The mystery of the seven stars which you
saw in My right hand, and the seven golden
lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of
the seven churches, and the seven lampstands
which you saw are the seven churches.
Oh yes, Sweet Jesus! The 7-stars,
the 7-golden lampstands -- the Church age
in double completeness.
And when the church on earth is complete,
the Christ, Jesus, will rapture the church.
And the wedding supper of the Lamb will
take place in heaven as the Tribulation
takes place on earth.
12. Mystery, Babylon the Great:
This mystery forcasts the final
world apostate church of
the Tribulation after the Rapture.
Revelation 17:5 (nKJV), emphasis from the source:
And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
13. Mystery of God
This mystery announces the conclusion of God's
program to consummate history during the
the last days of the voice of the seventh angel".
All the mystery prophecies concerning the
Kingdom of Christ will be fulfilled,
relevant to Israel
and the world leading to the reign of the Messiah.
Revelation 10:7 (nKJV):
but in the days of the sounding of the seventh
angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery
of God would be finished, as He declared
to His servants the prophets. -
psr.2, why didn't you just stick with Eph. 3 to figure out its interpretation? Why are you so scatterbrained when someone questions your beliefs?
Eph 3 tells us what the mystery is. I posted the text. Now, deal with the text or stop spamming the thread. -
UH Daniel....that post is from ED. Take a deep breath and relax. I answered your question from Eph. just look prior to Ed's post.
Scatterbrained = shooting off ones mouth without facts.
I would appreciate an apology. -
Wow Ed look out the "Spammer" police are really thick tonight.
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the defintion of what "mystery" means in
the New Testament. It was hidden in the Old
Testament, it is revealed in the New Testament.
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be the "pun" police ;) -
psr.2, you didn't answer anything according to Eph. 3. You jumped to sacrifices, pink elephants, something about the wrong medication, and something about wearing candy-cane boxers.
You will have to focus on this one, but please do so that we can understand you. -
The idea that was meant to convey was not one of a threat, but one of letting you know that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
When you ask (nay, demand) debate, then debate. But you don't (won't) debate. You run to rabbit trails and insults. That is not a debate; it is a childish playground tactic.
I am not a part of this debate. I could be, in that Paul makes it abundantly clear as to what this 'mystery' is. But I don't care to be a target for your childish ways.
As for the part about if we were face to face, I do not abide people who would be so shortsighted as to speak in the manner that you do in your posts. I will talk and reason with anyone who will talk and reason, but what you like to do does not fall into that catagory. I can be rather pointed with words, but I choose not to be on the Board. But, in private, when I encounter someone who likes to be insulting, I am not so gentle (one can be direct and to the point without foul language and uncoothness). The true art of it is in the choice of wording an arguement, not in insulting your opponent.
In Christ,
Trotter
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