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N. T. Wright on Predestination and Election

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Humble Disciple, Aug 3, 2021.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All saved are the elect!
     
  2. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  4. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    I believe in sola scriptura and sola Christus, not sola Warfield.

    The doctrine of unlimited inerrancy is a modern invention, and it has nothing to do with the essentials of Christian salvation.

    "In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity."

    Ecclesiastes 7:18
    It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

    1 Corinthians 8:2-3
    Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.
     
    #24 Humble Disciple, Aug 4, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Of an errant or inerrant God?
     
  6. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    You'll notice it doesn't say claim to be the elect of God. It's says act as the elect.
    MB
     
  7. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    You worship election then for me. I'll stay with Jesus Christ. Election is your gospel do you see the difference?
    MB
     
  8. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The resurrection of Christ is the gospel. It's the real good news.
    MB
     
  9. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    3:12 (NET)
    3:12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with a heart of mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience,

    Believers in Colossae are called the elect of God
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    This verse compares the elect to the Gentile. It's saying to be like the elect not be the elect KJV. You tell me I don't know scripture but even ignorant old me can read.
    MB
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well not merely "as" elect but "as" elect of God. It say this to both Jew and non-Jew. So to act fraudulently so or for real? To both Jew and non-Jew.
     
  12. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    1 Thessalonians 1:4–5: "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."
     
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't you agree that there is a difference in being elect and Gentile. You see we are to do as they do, not be them. There are Jews who are not electt.
    MB
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well needless to say that word is used commonly 100's of times. Explain why the non elect should
    act "as" God's elect? Since only the elect will be raptured, Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:52.
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All ever saved were the elect of God!
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the Cross of Christ is the Gospel!
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The election referenced in Ephesians 1:4 was corporate, God chose His Redeemer, His Lamb before the foundation of the world, and in so doing He corporately chose all those His Redeemer would redeem, i.e. the target group (believers) of His redemption plan.

    However, during the physical lifetime of people, God individually chooses (individual election) them for salvation by setting them apart in Christ, i.e. the sanctification by the Spirit, and by reason of crediting their faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
     
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Let me see what I can do.
    Wright is a very prolific writer. To summarize his work would need a book on its own. Therefore I'm picking on just one or two topics.
    Wright is a supporter and popularizer of a chap called E.P. Sanders who wrote a book in 1977 called Paul and Palestinian Judaism. This book, and Wright's What Saint Paul really Said, impose upon the Bible what Sanders and Wright consider to be 1st Century Judaism, based on some of the discoveries in the Dead Sea Scrolls and on early Rabbinic and pseudepigraphical writings. They argue from these that Judaism was not based on works righteousness but on what Wright calls 'covenantal nomism.' which involved obedience to the law within the context of God's gracious covenant (contra Mark 7:1ff). Obedience to the law was not thought of as the way into the covenant, but the way of staying in it..

    Part of the problem with all this is that it cuts across texts like Exodus 19:5 where the covenant is clearly conditional (compare with 1 Peter 2:9-10), and Romans 10:3, where Paul declares that the Jews were ignorant of God's righteousness and were seeking to establish their own. Also, Don Carson and Mark Seifrid have examined the evidence of the Dead Sea Scrolls and found that 'One could only be clean from sin by belonging to the community and observing their strict regulations' (Seifrid). And I attended a lecture by Sam Waldron back around 2,000 in which he quoted from a number of rabbinic authors, showing that according to them, men like Abraham, Moses and Ezra were approved and heard by God because of their ethical righteousness rather than by grace through faith (contra Romans 4:3 & Hebrews 11:24ff).

    There's much more to say, but the gist of the whole thing is that Wright is imposing a view of 1st Century Judaism upon Christianity rather than following the Bible. At best that view is disputed; at worst it is dead wrong.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    Without an actual quote of Wright himself, there's nothing I can respond to.

    Have you read the book Jesus: Two Visions by N. T. Wright and Marcus Borg, in which Wright defends the traditional understanding of Jesus?
     
  20. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    The New Testament term for the church "ekklesia," which is related to the English word "elect," was also used for the people of Israel in the Greek Septuagint.

    The Corporate View of Election
     
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