Nascar is back

[ccrobinson]

So who are the favorites coming up in California?

Biffle and Edwards top the list of favorites, having finished in the Top 5 at California in both races in 05. Kurt Busch has run well at California and he's my early pick to win. I expect Dale Jr to run better than he did in 05, but that team should be considered middle of the pack at these downforce/handling tracks until they prove otherwise.

 

[Scott J]

I think you will see a shuffle and probable resurgence of Gordon, Earnhardt, and some of the old guard.

After the body style change, the Fords will either be really strong or really wrong. It sounds like there may be more tire changes in store.

For both Gordon and Earnhardt, last year seemed to be the perfect storm. Always getting caught in the wrong place for wrecks. Turmoil at crew chief. Rules changes that didn't fit their particular styles.

I would be surprised if Biffle repeates last year's performance. As much as I wish Edwards would.... I'd say he's a long shot too.

 

[Scott J]

My prediction: Either Ford finishes 1-5 or else Dale Jarrett comes out of the race whining about Fords being at a disadvantage.

 

[ccrobinson]

This will be Fox's first broadcast of the season. There are several questions to be answered.

How long will it take Larry Mac for his first mangling of the English language? Which cliche will DW use first, "get up on the wheel", or "he's a great wheelman"? Is the cut-away car useful, or does it have a purpose other than making sure Jeff Hammond has a job?

As for a prediction, it doesn't matter how they finish, Jack Roush will leave California whining about Ford's disadvantage.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

I am going to predict Dale Jr surprises people and sets the tone for a much better season and wins at California.

I can do without Larry Mac, but I kinda like ole DW.

Boogity Boogity Boogity

Let's go racing boys....

 

[Scott J]

The miracle of Junior is that someone can so lack genuine talent as to squander the best facilities, personnel, and support in NASCAR.

He's a name... and apparently a pretty face to some- that's all. Take away the name and put him on a lesser team and he wouldn't even survive a season.

He in no way compares to the talent of the elite that he is so oftened mentioned with to include his father.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Scott, if that is true then why didn't Kerry Earnhardt get that?

I am not going to say that Dale Jr. is in the class of Gordon, Stewart and Dale Sr. But I think he is a talented driver that will win a championship and maybe more.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

ccr, I agree with you on the Knauss penalty. That is a good article. Thanks.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
Scott, if that is true then why didn't Kerry Earnhardt get that?

Honestly I don't know except that according to the ESPN move "3" DE Sr basically abandoned Kerry while he took responsibility for Junior. Of course the movie is disputed but there can be little doubt that Kerry hasn't received the promotion Junior has.

I am not going to say that Dale Jr. is in the class of Gordon, Stewart and Dale Sr. But I think he is a talented driver that will win a championship and maybe more.

I think he is a mediocre to poor driver propped up by great resources, name recognition, and a fairly healthy dose of NASCAR favoritism towards him.

I think that favoritism is purely business based btw and not personal. Junior is popular with alot of fans. NASCAR has a vested interest in keeping the fans interested. The Earnhardt name and Junior's youth appealing personna do that.

Let me put it this way... as much as I detest the guy, if you put Kurt B in the 8 car- he dominates. Put Stewart in the 8 car and Petty's single season win record might be in jeopardy.

 

[ccrobinson]

Oh, here we go. The old argument of Jr has everything because of his name. Your argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny, Scott.

Kerry Earnhardt has a name. How's that name working out for him? He doesn't have any wins and doesn't have a regular ride. The only time he even gets into a Cup race is when Childress tosses him a bone.

Kyle Petty has a name. He has 8 wins in over 20 years of fulltime Cup racing and hasn't won a single race since 1995. If it's all about the name, I should think that he'd have a lot more than 8 wins in 20 years.

I guess I don't understand how 16 wins in Cup racing equates to lack of talent. You'll get no argument from me that Jr. should probably win more than he does, but to call it lack of talent is ridiculous.

Jr has completed 6 seasons in Cup racing and has 16 wins, 5 more than Dale Sr after 6 seasons, but Sr had 1 championship to 0 for Jr. I don't think Dale Jr is as good as his daddy was, but Dale Jr hasn't been driving a Cup car for 20 years either.

Whenever I hear media people, or other fans, try to tell me that Jr. is as good as his father was, I don't listen to them anymore. In the same way, when I hear diatribes against Jr because he has only name and no talent, I take everything else they say about racing with a huge grain of salt.

I think this is the year that Jr has to show which of the last 2 seasons were the aberration. Was a disastrous 2005 the aberration or the norm? Or was it 2004?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by ccrobinson:
Oh, here we go. The old argument of Jr has everything because of his name. Your argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny, Scott.

Except that it does.

Junior has the best available equipment... engineers... car builders...crew... and on and on.

Yet he does not consistently win much less dominate.

Kyle Petty has a name. He has 8 wins in over 20 years of fulltime Cup racing and hasn't won a single race since 1995. If it's all about the name, I should think that he'd have a lot more than 8 wins in 20 years.

Petty isn't nearly as well funded as Junior... and he has probably less talent than Junior. Any other driver with his record would have been tossed long ago.

I guess I don't understand how 16 wins in Cup racing equates to lack of talent.

Equipment, equipment, crew, ...

You'll get no argument from me that Jr. should probably win more than he does, but to call it lack of talent is ridiculous.

He doesn't win with the best available equipment and that says nothing about his talent?

Whenever I hear media people, or other fans, try to tell me that Jr. is as good as his father was, I don't listen to them anymore. In the same way, when I hear diatribes against Jr because he has only name and no talent, I take everything else they say about racing with a huge grain of salt.

If Junior's daddy wasn't DE Sr... he wouldn't be driving Cup.

I think this is the year that Jr has to show which of the last 2 seasons were the aberration. Was a disastrous 2005 the aberration or the norm? Or was it 2004?

While Junior isn't very good... his crew chief is.

I look for them to have a good season because he is back.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

ccr I was going to look up those stats later today and post them. Thanks

I think you make great points about Kyle Petty and the fact that Jr. has 5 more wins than Sr. in 6 years.

 

[Scott J]

Oh and the comparison of Junior and Senior is completely bogus... Senior didn't have it handed to him on a platter. He came off the dirt tracks with nothing but determination. He had to earn everything he got to include good sponsorship and owner support. Junior got the silver platter.

Would you guys really argue that Sr wouldn't have won more races and championships within those first six years with the kind of support Junior has had?

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Scott, I am sure his name has not hurt him in many ways. But to say that he is not a talented driver is what is bogus.

Would you not agree that Gordon has as good of equipment and crew as anyone in the series? Why has he not dominated in the last few years like you say the 8 should?

I agree with ccr your statements do not hold up under scrutiny. I think you just don't like Jr. and cannot see the issue objectively.

I do not like Gordon at all. But I am objective enough to realize he is a great driver and will be considered with the best of all time.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
Scott, I am sure his name has not hurt him in many ways. But to say that he is not a talented driver is what is bogus.

You have to qualify that somewhat. It takes a certain amount of talent to not get killed out there every race. Junior is simply not talented comparatively. He is at best a mediocre driver with a name and great support.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Would you not agree that Gordon has as good of equipment and crew as anyone in the series?

Why has he not dominated in the last few years like you say the 8 should? </font>[/QUOTE] Three things. Gordon has slumped... but still won 24 races in that same six year period. So effectively we can say that a Gordon slump is 50% better than the best Junior can do.

Second, I don't think Hendrick has uniformly kept up with some of the others on equipment. I don't think any of the Chevy have kept up well with Roush or Penske. I don't even think that Hendrick over that same period has been at the top of the Chevy's. They had some significant engine power issues a few years back.

Third, Gordon really hasn't been on game since his divorce. Whatever the cause, it is an interesting parallel.

Bonus, there is a certain amount of chemistry needed between a driver and crew chief. Evernham and Gordon had a degree of "magic" that few teams ever find. We are asking for Gordon to find it twice.

Junior on the other hand proved last year what happens when he has to deal with a lesser crew chief... He can't race.

I think you just don't like Jr. and cannot see the issue objectively.

I don't like Junior... and the objective data says that he got where he is on his name and that he has the best resources in NASCAR but can't use them to dominate.

If you look around at different drivers, you'll see guys who came up through the ranks so to speak. Guys who raced open wheel or dirt track or short tracks. Guys who earned everything they got. Junior ain't one of those guys and he has done nothing else to earn my respect.

I do not like Gordon at all. But I am objective enough to realize he is a great driver and will be considered with the best of all time.

I didn't like Earnhardt Sr and would consider him amongst the best of all time. I don't like Stewart and in this very thread have recognized him as the most talented driver in the sport.

My dislike of Junior isn't clouded my assessment to the degree that would be convenient for you to dismiss by handwaving.

 

[ccrobinson]

Junior has the best available equipment

Subjective opinion.

You're expecting me to believe that Jr has better equipment than Gordon?

Would you not agree that Gordon has as good of equipment and crew as anyone in the series?

There are some who would say that no team is better funded or has better equipment than Jeff Gordon.

Petty isn't nearly as well funded as Junior... and he has probably less talent than Junior.

In Kyle's prime, he raced for Felix Sabates, and Sabates was well-known for throwing money around. Other than a general idea, but without empirical evidence to back it up, we have no way of knowing who is/was better funded. I don't think Kyle is/was as talented as Jr, and wouldn't you know it, the win totals seem to bear that out.

Equipment, equipment, crew

Hey, I've made this argument before. I made it earlier in this very thread about why I don't think Jeff Gordon is the greatest driver ever. If all of Earnhardt's wins are directly attributable to the best equipment and crew, couldn't we say the same thing about all of those wins by Gordon?

He doesn't win with the best available equipment and that says nothing about his talent?

Jr having the best equipment available is in dispute. Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

If Junior's daddy wasn't DE Sr... he wouldn't be driving Cup.

More subjective statements that can't possibly be proven. It's easy to make stuff up when you can't prove it.

I think you just don't like Jr. and cannot see the issue objectively.

I agree. Quite frankly, I'm really surprised to see these kinds of subjective opinions from you, Scott. You always struck me as being more objective than this.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Originally posted by Scott J:
I didn't like Earnhardt Sr and would consider him amongst the best of all time. I don't like Stewart and in this very thread have recognized him as the most talented driver in the sport.

My dislike of Junior isn't clouded my assessment to the degree that would be convenient for you to dismiss by handwaving.

Scott, I think on Stewart and Dale Sr. you have been objective. But for whatever reason when Jr is mentioned you lose that objectivity.

I would also like evidence for the #8 having such superior equipment compared to everyone else. As has been pointed out, it is easy to make subjective statements, but where is the evidence?

You make excuses for why Gordon has not dominated like you say the 8 should. Yet Gordon has as good as equipment, crew and support as anyone in the series and seeing that he is such a talented driver shouldn't he overcome any other problems?

 

[Scott J]

Hey, I've made this argument before. I made it earlier in this very thread about why I don't think Jeff Gordon is the greatest driver ever. If all of Earnhardt's wins are directly attributable to the best equipment and crew, couldn't we say the same thing about all of those wins by Gordon?

All? No. Some? Definitely. Gordon and Evernham were the first to apply advanced engineering to NASCAR. They had advantages that were probably worth 10-15 wins in the late 90's.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by ccrobinson:
Quite frankly, I'm really surprised to see these kinds of subjective opinions from you, Scott. You always struck me as being more objective than this.

One of the things I like about NASCAR is that I can step out of personna and be more passionate... and not have to worry about alot of objectivity... since NASCAR is dominated by subjectivity.

The objective facts don't favor Junior being recognized as anything better than a mediocre driver. You can like him if you want. I don't.

Same standard for Gordon. While he has had some equipment advantages, he has also willed cars to victory lane and earned the respect of none other than DE Sr... who wasn't the easiest guy to impress.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:


You make excuses for why Gordon has not dominated like you say the 8 should. Yet Gordon has as good as equipment, crew and support as anyone in the series and seeing that he is such a talented driver shouldn't he overcome any other problems?

Didn't make excuses... I acknowledged that he had slumped.

OTOH, it isn't like he never proved himself. He did. Junior hasn't.