Nascar is back

[Scott J]

BTW, a little backroom justice may be in order in the coming races if NASCAR doesn't get a handle on it.

Stewart's aggressive driving and lack of the "give and take" he demands of everyone else put two good drivers out of contention... though Gordon's come back was pretty impressive before his final stroke of bad "luck".

He ran over people all day... a little payback may be soon to come.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Originally posted by Scott J:
BTW, a little backroom justice may be in order in the coming races if NASCAR doesn't get a handle on it.

Seems rather hypocritcal of you to be complaining about Stewart and his actions (which were entirely wrong) and then calling for some one to do the same to him in coming races?

 

[ccrobinson]

Yep, he should have been penalized a lap. Other guys have been penalized a lap, or more, for doing less. Tony wants to be considered a leader in the garage area, ala Dale Earnhardt Sr., but I submit that he's lost all credibility he may have built up in his quest to be leader.

As Mark Martin noted yesterday, the rules weren't applied fairly to all competitors yesterday.

BTW, if Nascar was really and truly interested in stopping the teams from cheating, they would sit a car down for it. So, the next time that Cheater Knauss tries to pull something over on them, the #48 sits out a race. When the risk of cheating is losing out on a few million dollars, cheating will be a thing of the past. Nascar's problem is that they need to be extremely precise on what constitutes cheating. I don't envy them of that challenge, but that's why Brian France and Mike Helton make the big bucks.

 

[ccrobinson]

a little backroom justice may be in order in the coming races if NASCAR doesn't get a handle on it.

What do you mean by backroom justice? Are you talking about somebody (re: Kenseth) taking Tony out on the track?

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Originally posted by ccrobinson:
BTW, if Nascar was really and truly interested in stopping the teams from cheating, they would sit a car down for it. So, the next time that Cheater Knauss tries to pull something over on them, the #48 sits out a race. When the risk of cheating is losing out on a few million dollars, cheating will be a thing of the past. Nascar's problem is that they need to be extremely precise on what constitutes cheating.

I agree. If the penalty is sitting out a race, it will stop.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by ccrobinson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />a little backroom justice may be in order in the coming races if NASCAR doesn't get a handle on it.

What do you mean by backroom justice? Are you talking about somebody (re: Kenseth) taking Tony out on the track? </font>[/QUOTE]Yep.

NASCAR was founded by bootleggers. The "respect" that if you took a guy out that guy would escalate used to keep guys in line. If a couple of guys... say Kennseth and Gordon would agree with a "wink" to take Stewart out safely in a couple of races, he'd get his head straight realizing that he can't bully everyone and get away with it.

NASCAR will do nothing as long as no one gets seriously hurt and it promotes interest and passion about the sport.

Wrecks are part of it. Bumping and banging and aggressive driving are part of it. Occasionally, a guy's recklessness is part of it. But when a guy becomes a bully like Stewart has, someone will have to reign him in or else someone really will get killed like he hypocritcally warned. If NASCAR won't do it then it is left up to the drivers.

I came into yesterday being partly sold on Stewart's PR campaign... no more. He is still the bully he always was with no regard for anyone else's life or for the rules.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
BTW, a little backroom justice may be in order in the coming races if NASCAR doesn't get a handle on it.

Seems rather hypocritcal of you to be complaining about Stewart and his actions (which were entirely wrong) and then calling for some one to do the same to him in coming races? </font>[/QUOTE]NASCAR has almost always been built on "Old West", eye for an eye justice.

Not hypocritical at all. If you give, you get. Stewart did way more than his share of giving yesterday.

One of the announcer's came dangerously close to fairness when he said that if Stewart had lifted the way he should have the wreck with Gordon wouldn't have occurred. Gordon showed alot of decency by accepting part of the blame himself. Stewart cursed over the radio and blamed everything on Gordon... then came back later and blamed his flagrant endangerment of 17 on the 17.

 

[Scott J]

As far as Knauss is concerned, I am pretty sure I remember a similar infraction by 8 a few years ago... they were allowed to fix it and go to the back- no suspensions or fines.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

You cannot have it both ways. If it is wrong for Stewart to do that, it is wrong for all of them.

Stewart was completely wrong. He should have been penalized more.

 

[ccrobinson]

I am pretty sure I remember a similar infraction by 8 a few years ago... they were allowed to fix it and go to the back- no suspensions or fines.

You're going to have to do better than that. Evidence, please.

Jr's car was 1/8 of an inch too low after the fall 2001 Talladega, but other than the occasional unapproved parts infractions, I haven't seen any of the stuff that Cheater Knauss does on a regular basis. Cheater Knauss is a repeat offender and habitual cheater.

I understand why Hendrick and Jimmie Johnson support him publicly, but if I were driving the #48, I'd be mad as a hornet privately. Cheater is sending the message that he doesn't think his team and driver is good enough to win without cheating. On the racing board I go to, somebody asked who we thought the most underachieving driver would be. I said Jimmie Johnson precisely because of what Cheater did last week and how I thought it would affect the team. It looks like I'm wrong, but the season is still very young.

...say Kennseth and Gordon would agree with a "wink" to take Stewart out safely in a couple of races, he'd get his head straight realizing that he can't bully everyone and get away with it.

Are you watching the same Tony Stewart I am?

Get his head straight? He wouldn't do any such thing. If Kenseth or Gordon took him out at California in retaliation for yesterday, Tony would do the exact same thing to them at Las Vegas. I don't think retaliation, although it would be a satisfying outcome, is the right answer.

NASCAR will do nothing as long as no one gets seriously hurt and it promotes interest and passion about the sport.

No argument here. Nascar will say they don't want rough driving, but they don't exactly go out of their way to discourage it. It's one of Nascar's dirty little secrets.

One of the announcer's came dangerously close to fairness when he said that if Stewart had lifted the way he should have the wreck with Gordon wouldn't have occurred.

I don't agree with Wally on that one. Tony had already established his track position in the high line. At that point on the track, it's Gordon's responsibility to avoid him, not the other way around. Jeff is just as much at fault, which he rightly stated, because he didn't lift in order to keep his car off of the 20.

Tony should have lifted, not because he was obligated, but because he shouldn't have had his day ruined by that incident. There were plenty examples of rough driving by Stewart, but that wasn't one of them.

Regardless of the incident with Gordon, Tony Stewart was the personification of hypocrite yesterday.

 

[ccrobinson]

If it is wrong for Stewart to do that, it is wrong for all of them.

Here I go and write a paragraph about it, and PastorSBC says it in 1 sentence.

I completely agree.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
You cannot have it both ways. If it is wrong for Stewart to do that, it is wrong for all of them.

Stewart was completely wrong. He should have been penalized more.

That's not the way vigilante justice works... and vigilante justice has always been the code of discipline for NASCAR.

I'm not suggesting that I should have it both ways... Stewart has committed an offense against two guys by his recklessly aggressive driving. He has violated the code by a) not giving and taking and b) by risking a guys life by intentionally wrecking him at 180 mph.

NASCAR hasn't, can't, and won't discipline him effectively. In spite of his PR, he doesn't respect them and won't unless they seriously suspend him for races.

A wreck or two that cost him money and points will either escalate the battle further or make him realize that he can't bully everyone.

 

[swaimj]

I don't think that Stewart was OBLIGATED to cut Gordon any slack, but he would have been WISE to, since it seriously hurt his chances to win the race.

I don't think that Kenseth came down on Stewart. I think they got close and Stewart got the air taken off his car and almost spun. Stewart would have been wise to leave Kenseth alone and not wreck him. Wrecking him put him in a position where penalties hurt his chances of winning the race.

Stewart is a VERY skilled driver. However, at key moments he loses him temper, clouding his judgement and hurting his own chances of winning.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Scott, you and I will just have to disagree. That may be the way they have handled things in the past. But that does not make it the right way to handle things. All it does it put more people's lives at risk and cause more accidents and more aggression.

I don't think that Stewart was OBLIGATED to cut Gordon any slack, but he would have been WISE to, since it seriously hurt his chances to win the race.

I agree. I do not think he was obligated to cut him any slack. And as ccr pointed out I do not think this was one of the situations of Tony's agressive driving. There were plenty of others though.

Stewart is a VERY skilled driver. However, at key moments he loses him temper, clouding his judgement and hurting his own chances of winning.

As a big fan of Stewart, I agree with you. It is frustrating to see a driver with so much talent resort to such things. He does not need to do those things to win and be successful. I hope he gets his head straight for the rest of the year.

OTOH, it is amazing to me that we do not see more of that stuff. Goodness, you put all of those guys with all of that testosterone in that close of space for that length of time and tell them to race after the pot of gold and what do you expect? And then to top it all off after they have went through all of that for a few hours they get a microphone stuffed in their face and asked to respond

I guess that is part of the reason why I love it so much. Looking forward to next week in California!

 

[Bob Alkire]

Just a question. How many races did Dale Earnhardt win and didn't put his right front fender into the left rear quarter panel?
Now onto the Stewart deal Gordon went into him. On the other deal with Kenseth, Kenseth said he might have hit Stewart but he didn't mean to and if Stewart came from as high as he was down to hit Kenseth he was wrong. However I heard in SC yesterday with an interview with Cale Yarborough and he said Tony was hit. He said to come down that far something was wrong. I don't know if he saw him get hit or was going by how he came across and down. I didn't see him get hit, I had it on the radio. They said he was pushed and then came down. My wife saw it on TV and she said she didn't think he was hit but wasn't for sure.
I think Matt wouldn't want to mess with Tony off the track, Tony is to much like his hero(A.J., don't mind a good fight.
I bet Joe is talking to Tony now.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by swaimj:
I don't think that Stewart was OBLIGATED to cut Gordon any slack, but he would have been WISE to, since it seriously hurt his chances to win the race.

OK by me so long as he doesn't whine next time someone like Kennseth doesn't give him racing room... or worse endangers their life by intentionally wrecking them at 180 mph.

Stewart is a VERY skilled driver. However, at key moments he loses him temper, clouding his judgement and hurting his own chances of winning.

I don't like his attitude but Stewart is probably the most talented driver in NASCAR with or without his temper.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
Scott, you and I will just have to disagree. That may be the way they have handled things in the past. But that does not make it the right way to handle things. All it does it put more people's lives at risk and cause more accidents and more aggression.

Not really. When the disrespect and feeling of immortality gets out of hand is when the real risks occur. Stewart respects no one... not the drivers, not NASCAR. NASCAR isn't going to use meaningful discipline on the guy. Surprisingly, Gibbs hasn't.

It is left up to the drivers before he really does kill somebody.

NASCAR was built on two things that still dominate the sport. One is commercialism. They've never pretended it wasn't part of it. Second was that Old West, bar room redneck, bootlegger style of justice.

Short of NASCAR pulling cars off the track or suspending drivers for races for doing what Stewart did... there is no other source for disciplining the guy than driver payback... and I suspect that its coming.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I don't think that Stewart was OBLIGATED to cut Gordon any slack, but he would have been WISE to, since it seriously hurt his chances to win the race.

I agree. I do not think he was obligated to cut him any slack. And as ccr pointed out I do not think this was one of the situations of Tony's agressive driving. There were plenty of others though.</font>[/QUOTE] The next time your driver has his rear corner panel on a guys front bumper and the guy fails to respect the pass and give him room but instead wrecks him... sing the same tune.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Originally posted by Scott J:
It is left up to the drivers before he really does kill somebody.

Again, we just have to disagree here. By other drivers agreeing to take out Stewart they are not only putting Stewarts life at risk, but they are putting their own and other drivers lives at risk. It would be better handled for NASCAR and Gibbs to sit down with Tony and anyone else that needs it and say "This is going to stop, you do it again and you sit out 3 races." Just because NASCAR has always done it one way does not make it right.

The next time your driver has his rear corner panel on a guys front bumper and the guy fails to respect the pass and give him room but instead wrecks him... sing the same tune.

Sounds you like you are just crying over spilled milk here because pretty boy Gordon did not get a chance to win the race.

If the roles were reveresed I would be saying the same thing.

Oh well, on to California!

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Originally posted by Scott J:
Stewart is probably the most talented driver in NASCAR with or without his temper.

Hey, we finally agree on something

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
It is left up to the drivers before he really does kill somebody.

Again, we just have to disagree here. By other drivers agreeing to take out Stewart they are not only putting Stewarts life at risk, but they are putting their own and other drivers lives at risk.</font>[/QUOTE] Pure mathematics/probability. "Is my life and fortune more endangered by a guy who is completely selfish, inconsiderate, and reckless... or by taking that guy out a few times to humble him?" If the drivers don't get Stewart back in line then we know NASCAR won't until someone gets hurt or killed. Fan hatred for drivers sells the series every bit as much as love for them so NASCAR has no vested interest in putting him on the side lines.

It would be better handled for NASCAR and Gibbs to sit down with Tony and anyone else that needs it and say "This is going to stop, you do it again and you sit out 3 races."

Maybe... but that just isn't realistic. The secret not talked about is that it would be sell more to have a feud that took Stewart out of a races than the kind of discipline you describe.

Just because NASCAR has always done it one way does not make it right.

"Right" in this case is in the eye of the beholder. The old NASCAR had redneck chivalry- almost an honor code amongst rogues. It worked... what they are doing now isn't working.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The next time your driver has his rear corner panel on a guys front bumper and the guy fails to respect the pass and give him room but instead wrecks him... sing the same tune.

Sounds you like you are just crying over spilled milk here because pretty boy Gordon did not get a chance to win the race.

</font>[/QUOTE] Not really. I pull for Gordon but up until the last wreck that took him out at the end- the wreck with Stewart and Gordon's subsequent come back had given me a good feeling about his team. It looked more like the Gordon of Evernham days.

Gordon had taken an aero-broken car that couldn't restart due to no 3rd gear and driven it into the top 10... Stewart might ought to make a habit out of taking Gordon out if he can't stand the competition.

If the roles were reveresed I would be saying the same thing.

Oh well, on to California!

Seldom are the roles reversed though. Alot of people don't like Gordon... but you can hardly claim that he is a particularly dirty driver. He isn't.