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Featured Neither Arminianism nor Calvinism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, May 24, 2019.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Childern of a saved parent. This truth does not address names of children who die being in or not in the book (Revelation 20:15). The argument remains a matter of interpretation and does not explicitly disallow Mark 10:14 and the need expressed in verse 15 which said parent would have had to have met prior.
     
  2. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    I disagree that they are “guilty” in Adam. Scripture makes clear that Adam’s judgement - death - (not sin) was universal. In essence, Adam’s sin caused a corporate judgement of death. For all of time until Christ, that judgement was just, because none were righteous. A single righteous person would necessitate a repeal of the corporate judgement in lieu of individual judgements.

    Romans 5:12-21 (NASB) 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. ​

    So clearly, we see that sin didn’t spread to all men, yet death did spread, and death did reign. This makes sense because God didn’t curse the earth with sin, but with death when he said, “for dust you are and to dust you will return.” This curse perpetuates. But notice why death spread, because all have sinned (many individual sins, not a single sin). Additionally, I think verse 13 is a better verse to support the salvation of children. Sin has no power to those who don’t yet have the ability to believe or understand the law.

    The next part requires us to chart out the comparisons and contrasts. The scripture shows now how the sin & death compare to the free gift by grace of righteousness & life. Take special note about what the differences & similarities are.

    15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

    So differences:
    v15. Transgression of 1 person leads to death vs gift leads through one man leads to ?
    v16. Judgement of 1 sin of 1 person resulted in condemnation vs free gift arose from many sins resulting in justification.

    At this point you start to think about the one sin of Adam verses the many sins forgiven by the free gift. This begs the question: if we are all guilty of the one sin in Adam, to save us, wouldn’t we just need the free gift to forgive the one sin? If all of us are guilty only in Adam, and ANY ONE PERSON IS FORGIVEN in all of history, that would forgive the one sin thereby justifying all human beings who came after Adam as sinless.

    So similarities:
    v18. One transgression resulted in condemnation of all vs one act of righteousness resulted in justification of life to all
    v19. One mans disobedience brought sin & death to many vs one mans obedience brought righteousness & life to many

    So a picture logically emerges. Adam’s sin brought death into the world as a corporate judgement. This judgement remains justified because each of us has individually sinned & none were righteous so as to make the judgement unjust. That is until Jesus came & lived a righteous life (by the law). He was just & righteous and he died. This means Adam’s judgement for the first time was unjust.

    It had to be repealed in lieu of individual judgements.

    Acts 24:15 (NASB)
    having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

    John 5:28-29 (NASB) 28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

    Revelation 21:7-8 (NASB) 7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

    So ALL PEOPLE are resurrected as a result of the repeal of Adam’s judgement in lieu of individual judgements. Because of Jesus, Adam’s judgement was no longer just, so it necessitated repeal of that death. Therefore ALL are resurrected, but not all will have eternal life. Our many sins, then (not the one sin of Adam) is what is covered by the free gift! Our faith and the resulting inheritance of Christ’s righteousness are applied to us in the 2nd, individual judgement.
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense.
     
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  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    You did not provide any evidence. You made a claim and attached a scripture name to it. Some how you believe that is sufficient. I have no idea why. The scripture you attached to it in no way say what you are making a claim for in an unsubstantiated way. Now, in opposition to your claim I have done as much as you have done in making your claim. You have yet to prove it.
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No...he did not say that.read it again
    Read the whole verse.
     
    #25 Iconoclast, Jun 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    All sinned.
    All sinned at one point in time.
    All sinned in Adam
    Romans3:23
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    It seems every three months or so, someone tries to prove those who die before the age of accountability do not go to Hades and will not go to Gehenna. The same flimsy arguments are used over and over.

    Yet these truths can not be refuted. When we are conceived in iniquity, we are made sinners, condemned already because of unbelief. All this applies to those who have not yet done anything good or bad.

    The truth is God will provide perfect justice for these little ones. Trust in that and do not try to rewrite scripture to provide a loop hole.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    That verse does not support your conclusion (context matters):

    Romans 3:21-24
    But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Sure it does.
    All sinned is in the aorist tense.

    It was a completed action occuring at one point in time.
    Biblicist wrote extensively on it a few months ago,remember.
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    That is not what I am talking about.

    "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus"

    What do the "all" have in common? They all sinned and are being justified.

    Paul is speaking of the equality between Jew and Gentile converts - Hod's righteousness manifested apart from the Law.

    The verse does not reject the idea that these sinned in Adam, but neither does it establish the doctrine. We have to be careful not to read into Scripture what is not there (even if we think we see it elsewhere).
     
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  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    It teaches what it does when properly understood.
    Biblicist went into great detail, and Martin commented on it.
    I will look up those comments

    The fact that All sinned just shows the Covenant sheep were also sinners

    Only believers are justified. You are not suggesting that unbelieving ALL ,are also justified are you?
     
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  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    2 Corinthians 5:14, ". . . that if one died for all, then were all dead: . . ." 1 John 2:2, ". . . he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ." 1 John 5:19, ". . . the whole world lieth in wickedness. . . ."
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Only those whose names are not in the book of life perish (Revelation 20:15). How are children who are not of an age to accept Christ have their names in the book of life? Why is their a promise not in any way to have one's name blotted out? (Revelation 3:5)
     
  14. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Rom 3:23 NASB
    3 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    Not seeing anything about "one point in time", nor seeing "Adam" mentioned in Romans 3:23... can you show me from Rom 3:23 where those statements are?
     
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  15. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    No, but you are getting very close to your mistake.

    Read the part of Scripture you are lifting in its own context.

    I am not saying your conclusion is right or wrong - only that the verse you think affirms your position absolutely does not. Look again -

    "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus"
     
  16. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Romans 5:12:

    KJV - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    NIV - Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

    NASB - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

    YLT - because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;

    5:14 - Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

    5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

    5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
    Notice how the free gift arose from MANY transgressions... not from one transgression. The sin that is covered by the free gift is not the ONE sin (which would be all that was necessary if we were all guilty in Adam), but the free gift of righteousness covers many sins - each of our individual sin. The corporate Adamic judgement of death will be repealed for ALL, the sinners and the saints. Then all will face the great white throne judement... an individual judgement rather than a corporate judgement. Is THE SECOND JUDGMENT which our faith and Christ's righteousness save us from. The first judgement will be repealed because there was a SINGLE righteous person... this means a corporate judgement is no longer just, and it must be repealed in lieu of individual judgments.

    Functionally, it makes no difference whether we are guilty in Adam or not... our eternity will not rely on that sin or it's judgement. But we do experience the judgement of Adam (death) to be sure. When that is repealed, that sin and it's judgement will be rendered irrelevant. ALL of humanity will be resurrected... those with faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ will escape the second judgment, and those without faith in the gospel will have a second death. That repeal of the corporate judgement of Adam is now an absolute inevitability because Jesus was 1 righteous person.

    5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

    5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.​

    The whole of these passages are comparing and contrasting the judgement of death with the free gift of righteousness which is life. Sin was the mechanism that brought death (the judgement), but it is not the topic. It is talking about the RESULT of sin (death) and the RESULT of the gift of righteousness (life). Notice how it said "death reigns" or "death spread" many times. It is the judgement for sin (death) which perpetuates and is INHERITED by our offspring. And it is our fear of death which causes us to have a sin nature.

    Heb 2:14-15 NASB
    14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

    John 8:34 NASB
    34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

    Romans 8:15 NASB
    15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”​

    In Adam all DIE, not all SIN.

    1Co 15:21-22 NASB
    21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

    It is our fear of death which enslaves us to the sin nature.
     
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes...when I get on My laptop I will get the info for you.As time 0erm85s I will ho.over your romans 5 0ost also.
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    It would be nonsense to deny this.
     
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  19. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    It doesn't.

    The Greek expresses a truth, here - that all (both Greek and Gentile) have sinned. Do not be fooled by poor exegesis (excellent eisegesis). The verse does not demand that all are condemned for Adam's sin - although I would argue other passages do present this condemnation.

    In the passage Paul is dealing with both Jew and Gentiles who are justified. They are on level ground, both equally sinful. Neither are justified through the Law.
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    To clarify:

    It is very tempting to take one word or set of words in a passage and bend them to our own theological convictions or conclusions. But this is wrong, even when the conclusions are right.

    We see this in taking "Elohim" as a plural to be proof of the Trinity. While the Trinity is true, the use of 'Elohim" in Genesis does not prove the Godhead. (The reason is the plural use of a Hebrew word does not always mean more than one....I know.....that's not how it works in English).

    @Iconoclast made a common error. Regardless of the correctness of this theology he read it into the passage in question. The passage is not speaking of the origin of sin, but the fact that sin places both Jew and Gentile on common ground.

    Thankfully many who would have pounced on my objection have been silenced (you're welcome, BB :D ), but I am not saying this to denounce @Iconoclast 's ultimate conclusion of all men sinning "in Adam". Instead I am saying this because his treatment of the passage itself was wrong.
     
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