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Featured Neither Arminianism nor Calvinism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, May 24, 2019.

  1. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    No one denies that all have sinned... I disagree with the addition of the phrase “in Adam” to the phrase “all have sinned.” All of us have our own sin, we are not guilty of the sin of Adam. We are under the judgement of Adam, but no where in scripture does it say we are guilty of Adam’s sin. If this were the case, Jesus would have been a sinner, and not a sinless, spotless lamb. Furthermore, Galatians 3 says Jesus ‘became a curse for us.’ Did he become guilty of Adam’s sin?

    You should read Genesis 3 and tell me which verse of this chapter indicates that God cursed the earth with SIN. I can show you several verses which show God cursed the earth with death (in several forms), but never does He curse the earth with sin. Sin came into the world as disobedience. Sin is MAN’s invention, not God’s intervention. Sin is not a punishment, it is a crime. Think logically. We all live with the consequence of sin, but we do not need Adam’s sin to be sinners. We are all sinners because all of us have sinned our own sins.

    In fact, Romans 5:14 says death reigned even over those who were not guilty of Adam’s sin, demonstrating they did not inherit the guilt of Adam, but rather the judgement of Adam. From Adam all the way to Moses when the Law was given and people became aware of sin.
     
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  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Given the context of Gen 1 it, in fact, does prove the Trinity.
     
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  3. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    The word "Elohim" does not (plural can and has been used to describe majesty....think nosism).

    When we read back I think the work of the Trinity is clearly present. But the plural words do not demand such an interpretation.
     
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "Gup20


    Here is the correct teaching of this passage;
    From Calvinism/ Arminianism, by W.R.Downing pg149


    Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Rom. 8:7–8)

    This passage describes the horrible ethical, intellectual, spiritual, moral and social history of mankind abandoned by God to its own sinful tendencies and passions. This has great epistemological implications Kai. kaqw.j ouvk evdoki,masan to.n qeo.n e;cein evn evpignw,sei( pare,dwken auvtou.j o` qeo.j eivj avdo,kimon nou/n, The terms (evdoki,masan... avdo,kimon) connote “disapproved” [after testing, rejected] or “reprobated” [Latin]. “being filled” is to be construed with each of the following: “all [kinds or forms of] unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness...” “Full of” is to be construed with each of the following: [being filled to the point of overflowing or bursting with] “envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity...” oi{tine" toV dikaivwma tou' qeou' ejpignovnte". They are such ones who [rel. pron., stressing character] as the judgment of God [emph. pos.] fully comprehending...” evpignw,sij denotes full or adequate knowledge.

    They are fully aware of Divine judgment upon their actions. 395 pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/, “For all sinned [aor., sinned in Adam], and are continually coming short [pres., denoting continuous action] of the glory of God.” 396 “...all have sinned.” (pa,ntej h[marton). The aor. tense signifies an event, “all sinned [in Adam].” This refers to original sin, not subsequent or personal sins. (u`phkou,sate de. evk kardi,aj eivj o]n paredo,qhte tu,pon didach/j) Lit: “...[that] to which you were handed over [emph. pos.] pattern of teaching...” Believers have been pressed—reshaped, conformed to, molded—into the Gospel pattern by the grace of God. They have become “willing bondslaves to righteousness.” 398 Unbelievers have never been free from the claims of righteousness. The idea is rather one of “disengaged.” Righteousness had no power to engage them, i.e., to motivate or empower them. 399 to. fro,nhma th/j sarko.j, emph. the content or process of thought. e;cqra eivj [enmity, hatred] qeo,n( tw/| ga.r no,mw| tou/ qeou/ ouvc u`pota,ssetai( ouvde. ga.r du,natai.\The unregenerate mind has a hatred for God and does not possess the dynamic or power (ouvde….du,natai) to submit to Divine truth. 143

    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor. 2:14)400

    Here from preceptaustin;
    To sin is to act contrary to the will and law of God. Everybody is born into Adam and thus all sinned for when he sinned, for he acted as the representative for all his descendants. Men are not only sinners by nature, but are also sinners by practice and thus continually fall short (see below), in committing sin themselves. Thus there is a universal need for the gospel, which is thankfully mercifully universally available!

    The aorist tense here is referred to as "timeless aorist" which gathers up the whole human race for all time into this condemnation (see also A T Robertson). There are no exceptions save Christ Jesus as Paul has made clear in the preceding indictment in (Ro 1:18-3:20)

    Godet agrees writing that the aorist tense "transports us to the point of time when the result of human life appears as a completed fact, the hour of judgment."

    MacDonald writes that the aorist tense pictures the fact that "Everybody sinned in Adam; when he sinned, he acted as the representative for all his descendants. But men are not only sinners by nature; they are also sinners by practice.

    Leon Morris - The aorist pictures this as past, but also as a completion. It certainly does not mean that sin belongs wholly in the past, for Paul goes on to a present tense when he says fall short of the glory of God. Elsewhere in Romans the glory is often future (Ro 2:7, 10; 5:2; 8:18, 21). But there is also a present glory, for God “made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ” (2 Cor. 4:6; cf. 2 Cor. 3:18; John 17:22). But this is something Christ produces in believers. Sinners fall short of it. Not only did all sin in the past, but they continually come short of God’s glory. (Ibid)

    Vincent writes that the aorist tense means "looking back to a thing definitely past — the hist
     
    #44 Iconoclast, Jun 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "JonC,
    Yes it does. However because you seem to come up short in understanding the teaching here, does not make my use wrong at all. The error is coming from your keyboard, once again....

    To sin is to act contrary to the will and law of God. Everybody is born into Adam and thus all sinned for when he sinned, for he acted as the representative for all his descendants. Men are not only sinners by nature, but are also sinners by practice and thus continually fall short (see below), in committing sin themselves. Thus there is a universal need for the gospel, which is thankfully mercifully universally available!

    The aorist tense here is referred to as "timeless aorist" which gathers up the whole human race for all time into this condemnation (see also A T Robertson). There are no exceptions save Christ Jesus as Paul has made clear in the preceding indictment in (Ro 1:18-3:20)

    Godet agrees writing that the aorist tense "transports us to the point of time when the result of human life appears as a completed fact, the hour of judgment."

    MacDonald writes that the aorist tense pictures the fact that "Everybody sinned in Adam; when he sinned, he acted as the representative for all his descendants. But men are not only sinners by nature; they are also sinners by practice.

    Leon Morris - The aorist pictures this as past, but also as a completion. It certainly does not mean that sin belongs wholly in the past, for Paul goes on to a present tense when he says fall short of the glory of God. Elsewhere in Romans the glory is often future (Ro 2:7, 10; 5:2; 8:18, 21). But there is also a present glory, for God “made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ” (2 Cor. 4:6; cf. 2 Cor. 3:18; John 17:22). But this is something Christ produces in believers. Sinners fall short of it. Not only did all sin in the past, but they continually come short of God’s glory. (Ibid)

    Vincent writes that the aorist tense means "looking back to a thing definitely past — the hist
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    JonC,
    sure it does...
    I will not. That is why I sometimes chuckle at your posts which attempt to explain away clear AND HISTORIC TEACHING.

    Yes it does, but I know you struggle mightily with this.


    This does show the inconsistent ideas that you in fact read into the text. The text was clear.All sinned in Adam, All died Spiritually in Adam
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "JonC,

    Strawman alert

    Your lack of understanding this whole area is leading to a series of defective ideas
    .
    Upon further review, Iconoclast made no error but offered solid teaching.
    It is also important to notice, Iconoclast is not the topic of this thread.





    That false accusation has now been dispelled


    Yes it is..Paul is concluding that All are guilty having sinned in Adam.Jew, gentile All guilty.

    Sure you are, but we have offered the necessary correction now:Redface
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "Gup20,

    Romans 5:12:

    KJV - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


    We are guilty of the one sin, however we also commit many sins all on our own.

    No the unsaved go from first death, directly into second death.


    This is not accurate.


    There is no repeal of Adams sin.

     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Two things which should not be conflated. One, we are decendants in Adam - as was our sinless Savior. Secondly , we are sinners on account of Adam's disobience. Yet our Savior was not caused to be a sinner. It is the knowledge of good and evil which we inherited from Adam and Eve which is the cause of the sinful nature in us, yet not in our Savior. He inherited that too from Adam and Eve being fully human, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15). The reason being that very knowledge of good and evil was originally His divine knowledge being He was the Creator (John 1:3; Genesis 3:22; John 1:9-10; Mark 10:18).
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Do you believe the biblical teaching that men are conceived in sin?
    Do you believe men are conceived spiritually dead?
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Think. The Man Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit. We are of two human parents. Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20; Revelation 20:12.
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    ha
    You need to answer these questions to come to truth.
    Are we conceived spiritually dead?
    If so when did spiritual death take place?
    What effects does spiritual death have on a person according to scripture.
    Did Adam die at the fall?
    Or was Adam only slightly wounded and just needs therapy.?
     
  14. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Friend, this teaching is woefully wrong. The notion that this refers to original sin is inflicted upon the text, not drawn from it. In fact, Paul spends the bulk of Romans 2 establishing who and why all are concluded under sin:

    Rom 2:1-6 NASB
    1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same [yourself,] that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

    Rom 2:12-16 NASB
    12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for [it is] not the hearers of the Law [who] are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.​

    Paul thoroughly establishes that each person's own sin & deeds condemn them, not the sin of Adam. In fact, Adam is not mentioned either in Romans or in the passages from Psalms that Paul quotes in Romans 3:23, nor in Romans 8.



    This is imagined, not born from the text. No where does it describe Adam or the concept of original sin... actually it painstakingly constructs quite the opposite picture. The notion that the tense construes the opposite meaning from the actual words of the text is such a stretch that it strains credulity to the point of breaking. A number of other possible meanings that agree with the text itself are present, so there is literally no reason whatsoever to draw that meaning from the text... and in fact... an abundance of reason to draw the opposite conclusion.

    If it meant that "all had sinned" applied perpetually to all people of all times, that would be warranted. But to impose the meaning that this referred to Adam's sin is completely extra-textual, and far beyond the scope of what could rationally be accepted from the text itself. My friend, I'm sorry, but it just doesn't speak of Adam in any way, shape, or form.
     
  15. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    I agree with you that we are descendants of Adam. However, I disagree that we inherited Adam's sin. Rather, we inherited Adam's judgement (death); we have inherited the result of Adam's sin.

    1Co 15:21-22 NASB
    21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

    Rom 5:16-17 NASB
    16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.​

    Just as we inherit the result of Adam's sin (death), we inherit the result of Christ's righteousness (life). Notice the above passage of Romans 5 says "from many transgressions." If it were speaking of Adam's sin, it would say the free gift arose from one transgression. This is an extremely important distinction because it is the MANY sins which are covered by the righteousness of Christ, not the one sin. The reason is Adam's corporate judgement (death) will be repealed and a new, individual judgments will take its place.

    Consider the following apparent contradiction:

    Numbers 14:18
    The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.

    Ezekiel 18:20
    The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

    This at first seems a contradiction until you realize that Numbers is The Law and speaks to what now is... while Ezekiel is prophecy and speaks to what shall be. When the scripture speaks to the righteousness based on faith, it speaks to the second judgement, not the first. Christ's salvation covers us in the second judgement. The fact that Christ was righteous necessitates the repeal of the first, corporate judgement of Adam so that all may be judged individually, rather than corporately.

    Acts 24:15
    having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

    John 5:28
    “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
    29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


    Revelation 21:8
    “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    Daniel 12:1
    Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
    2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

    This pretty much means that, as it pertains to eternal salvation, Adam's judgement is irrelevant. It will be repealed for all -- sinners and saints alike.
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    We are not guilty for what Adam did. We are guilty for our own sin. We sin because of our inheritance of that knowledge of good and evil. (Genesis 3:22).
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Are we not born and sin?
    Are not lost sinners spiritually dead?
    Are not the spiritually dead at risk of having their names removed from the book?
    Did God lie to Adam about dying that day?
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    So you deny all these Greek teachers who open up the text...that is just wonderful .
    They should have asked you first..I understand:Cautious:Cautious:confused:
    That is what I am asking you
    Did Adam die that day?
    Did He die physically or spiritually
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    No, I am not (you have no authority to tell another person their intentions).

    Your error is obvious. I agree with you in the headship of Adam. Where I disagreed was with the conclusion it was appropriate to read into the passage that conclusion. Like I said, it is elsewhere in Scripture. BUT that is not the point or context of the passage you've quoted.
     
  20. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    He died spiritually, and physically.

    Genesis 3:21 (NASB) The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

    We see the first death to come into the world was literally to cover Adam & Eve for their sin.

    Genesis 2:17 (NASB) but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

    (From Genesis 2:17—“You Shall Surely Die” ):

    The phrase “you shall surely die” can be literally translated from the Hebrew biblical text as “dying you shall die.” In the Hebrew phrase we find the imperfect form of the Hebrew verb (you shall die) with the infinitive absolute form of the same verb (dying). This presence of the infinitive absolute intensifies the meaning of the imperfect verb (hence the usual translation of “you shall surely die”). This grammatical construction is quite common in the Old Testament, not just with this verb but others also, and does indicate (or intensify) the certainty of the action.
     
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