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No man perishes for want of an atonement

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Aug 17, 2011.

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  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    and the Elect are those whom God decided to save based upon SOLELY His Will and pleasure, not based upon us accepting jesus by our own "faith and free will?"
     
  2. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    They're paid for, but the sinner is still in debt? Is God a thief?
     
  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Oh deary me! You still don't understand. :BangHead:
    Of course the Gospel may be offered to all men. I have not read one person on this forum ever claiming otherwise. How on earth can we know who is elect and who isn't? Our job is to tell all men, "Repent and believe the good news!' (Mark 1:15).

    I did not write, 'Just the elect,' as you very well know. This is what I wrote, in answer to a different part of the Hodge quote:-

    Read Hodge again and try to understand. He says, 'That condition is a cordial acceptance of it as the only ground of justification.' Therefore he is not saying that all men receive anything but an offer. Only those who believe receive salvation. They are the ones for whom Christ died. They are the elect. Nothing that Hodge or I have written contradicts that. Nowhere does Hodge claim that atonement is provided for anyone but the elect. What he says is that atonement is provided for all who will come to Christ. As I said before, no one will come to Christ only to find that the grace has run out or the blood has lost its atoning quality. That really does seem to be what you're suggesting.

    I have absolutely dealt with the Hodge quote. It is you who does not understand. I thought you said that you were once a Calvinist. I find that very hard to believe since you display no understanding of what true Calvinism is.

    People who do not believe perish because they have no atonement for their sins. It is their sins, however, that actually send them to hell.

    Matt 7:23. "And then I will declare to them, 'Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness'"

    Matt 23:41. "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire......for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink......etc."

    John 8:24. "therefore I said to you that you will diein your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

    1Cor 6:9. 'Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived.'

    Gal 5:19-21. 'Now the works of the flesh are evident which are: adultery.............etc. Of which I tell you beforehand, just as I told you in time past, that those who practise such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.'

    Steve
     
    #63 Martin Marprelate, Aug 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2011
  4. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    I've questioned this myself for the same reasons as you. Everything else you've said? Dead on. We cannot know the elect until the Gospel is preached, and His come forth in belief.
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Thanks Steve....I was seriously questioning myself there for a while.:thumbsup:
     
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Ok, we are both reasonable human beings. Lets stop accusing each other of not having the ability to understand. We may have differing views and perspectives, but let's not reduce our dialogue to that level of discourse. Agreed?

    Brother, that was NOT the point I was attempting to make. I was showing that Hodge's passage had "all men" of "both classes" (the elect and non-elect) in view, while you attempted to take that one line to be in reference only to the elect. I know most mainstream Calvinists affirm the universal call of the gospel.

    Yes, I do know, You said, "I take "all men" to mean all men who will come to Christ in true repentance and faith. They alone receive salvation. They are the elect."

    How is different from, "just the elect?"

    Then can you explain what he specifically means by this:
    "Every man is required to satisfy the demands of the law. No man is required to do either more or less. If those demands are satisfied by a representative or substitute, his work is equally available for all."

    We both agree that Christ, the substitute, did satisfy those demands, right? And according to this quote his work in satisfying God's justice is equally available for all, right? If not, please explain what that means?

    When I hear "satisfy God's justice" I understand that as "atonement," but is that not the same for your view (or Hodge's view)?
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Still learning,
    I am glad we were able to come to partial agreement.Let me comment on this point;
    [QUOTEIf indeed God’s rest were salvation; The Bible would not be telling us to labor, to gain it.

    ][/QUOTE]

    Still....I fully believe salvation is 100% of the Lord. The decree, election,predestination,etc.
    However that being said.....all of God's elect are to work as if salvation depended on us! this is what the scripture teaches...that the means of perserverance....is gospel obedience,and a diligent pursuit of holiness in the life!!:thumbs:
    [QUOTE23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

    24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able
    ][/QUOTE]

    Believing God is in total control as the scriptures teach gives great boldness and confidence to labor in the Lord.......there is no such thing as coasting for Jesus....we should be serving more and more as we grow....approaching sinners with the gospel each opportunity God gives us.:thumbs:
     
  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    This will be my last post on this thread. I have answered each of your questions as clearly as I can on each of the parts of the Hodge quote you have highlighted. Instead of making a sensible comment on what I've written you simply highlight another section of the quote, as you have done again this time. I will answer you once more but then I'm through. I find answering the same question again and again stressful and irritating.

    You are just fooling around here. Of course Hodge has "both classes" in view. He is saying that the Gospel is to be offered to both elect and non-elect, which is what I said he said. [I am not a great fan of the word offered in this connection- I would prefer preached or proclaimed- but since Hodge uses it I suppose it will do]

    Because "All men" who trust in Christ will be saved. That is what Hodge is saying and it's what I am saying. A man's warrant to come to Christ is not that he believes that he is elect. It is that he is a sinner and Christ came to save such and promises not to turn any that come to Him away. However, "All men" who come are elect because the natural man does not perceive the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him.

    What is it here that is different to what I've already explained? Salvation is available to all who will come to Christ; every single person. How many more times do I have to say it? No one who comes to Christ will be turned away. However, 'There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside.......There is no fear of God before their eyes.' That is what the Scripture says. Unless God provides a definite atonement for His elect, not one soul would be saved. What Hodge is saying is that no one should say, There is no salvation for this one or that one, because if they will come to Christ, they will find that salvation.
    There is more to it than that, but atonement is certainly included. And there is atonement for EVERYONE who will come to Christ in true repentance and faith.

    Now I'm through. I cannot go on explaining the same thing time after time.

    Steve
     
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Actually, I think what he is saying is that the offer of salvation through the gospel can be genuinely offered BECAUSE Christ's work has satisfied the demands of the law and "is equally available for all."
    See how you always have to qualify your "all" and your "everyone" while Hodge does not? You always have to say "all who..." or "everyone who..." but Hodge's statement makes no such qualification. He simply states that the Representative has satisfied the demands and that work is available for all.

    Now, it is either available for every individual, or its only available to the elect. Which is it?

    You clearly say its available for "everyone who will come...the elect."
    Hodge clearly says "is equally available for all."

    If you only have 3 Super Bowl tickets and offer them to 5 friends (knowing that you have determined for two of those friends to certainly reject them because for what ever reason you don't like them as much) how can you truthfully claim that you have Super Bowls tickets available for them all? You can't, which is why you offer the qualification "all who can come get them." But even in that situation the offer to the two friends seems misleading at best.

    But, I believe Hodge is combating that charge by showing that Christ's work as a substitute didn't just earn the tickets for those 3, it really did provide it for all 5, because his work in satisfying the law for the elect certainly would cover the demands of the law for the non-elect who don't come. After all, if the demands are satisfied by a worthy representative they are satisfied "ONCE AND FOR ALL."
     
    #69 Skandelon, Aug 20, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2011
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Scan, I would like to see other testimony's from Calvinists who agree with your interpretation of Hodge since you said they are out there....please back that up. And/or commentary on his dissertations.
     
  11. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    This should help settle Mr. Charles Hodge view of whether he views atonement as being "Limited" or "Universal/General":

     
  12. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Thanks for the post Allan. I particularly think this part of the quote brings much clarity to our discussion:

    "This doctrine, that the sufferings of Christ amounted to the aggregate sufferings of those who are to be saved, that he endured just so much for so many, is not found in any confession of the Protestant churches. nor in the writings of any standard theologian, nor in the recognised authorities of any church of which we have any knowledge. The whole objection is a gross and inexcusable misrepresentation."

    Interesting indeed! :)
     
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    All I have to do is read the 1st line & Im stopping there. Obviously this is a bias & Im not interested in reading it....is that the best you guys can come up with?
     
  14. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    That quote is false. These things have been in the confessions of Protestant chuches, and in the writings of standard theologians (used the word standard there as a scapegoat to say that any one would pick that DID say this doesn't fall into his idea of standard). His objection is the "gross and inexcusable misrepresenatation" having turned a blind eye to the fact this teaching has been around in orthodox teachings and in the teachings of theologians. :)
     
  15. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    :applause: :applause: :thumbsup:
     
  16. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Your concession to the fact that you disagree with Hodge only goes to prove the intent of this thread.

    Thank you. :thumbsup:
     
  17. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yeah, a quote from Hodge calling "your view" a "gross and inexcusable misrepresentation" of Calvinism is probably not enough to prove the point I set out to make. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  18. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    I see you still play pretend. :)


    The intent of this thread is based upon your faulty understanding of Hodge as has been pointed out. Thus your illogical conclusions based upon your false assumptuous, alleged concessions and other misunderstandings, on your part, lead you down the same erroneous path. Congrats!

    :thumbsup:
     
  19. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yet, you just admitted you disagreed with Hodge's direct quote, remember? Hmmm. :thumbsup:


    So, which is it? Do you disagree with Hodge or not?
     
  20. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Whether I agree or disagree with Hodge doesn't prove your alleged (and ever changing intent) which is common practice for you, except within your pretending it to do so.
     
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