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Featured No need of Calvin, OSAS, Arminius, Spurgeon, Luther, and Boice

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by rockytopva, Dec 21, 2018.

  1. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    ...but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6:4

    There is no need of Calvin, Arminius, Spurgeon, Luther, and Boice... Or any other name when the Holy Spirit is with us! If we have the Holy Spirit deep down in the heart... What is the need of assurance? If the Spirit of God dwells deep within, helped along by faith in the Lord Jesus, there is simply no need of mans input to help things along.

    Pictured below is farmer I would work for in the hay field... Dallas would shout at work, shout in the hay field, and shout in church. He would also speak in tongues and run the aisles. He and his wife would operate a dairy farm and he would also work at the local ammunition plant. A very large soul his shouting would ring through the building. In the altar services he would kneel behind me in prayer and tears would roll off his cheek and onto my shoulders. A wonderfully large soul. Along with Dallas there were many others like him who would let the praises roll during church service. During the altar service old Evans Linkous used to weep like a baby. And if he were to look back to catch the amazed look in my eye he would weep, "The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!" And point to all the souls being blessed around the altar. After I experienced these things for myself the people would make a fuss, or in the words of the Apostle Paul, glorify God in me.

    Dallas.... Jesus in the family! What a happy home!
    [​IMG]

    You can hear Dallas shouting in the background. Dallas, Gertrude, and Pastor Vaught have all went to glory.


    And the old Merrimac Pentecostal Holiness church. I have never heard such singing , preaching, and shouting anywhere else in my entire life!

    [​IMG]

    And all of these folks knew nothing of Calvin, OSAS, Arminius, Spurgeon, Luther, and Boice.
     
  2. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    I spent a full year of college at a specialized business school and taught at a local Freewill Baptist church as well... In which they gave me a KJV Open Bible for my efforts, which I have kept to this good day. It was decades later, after researching church history, that I became aware of the Arminius / Calvin arguments, and that the reason they called themselves Freewill Baptist was because they were not Calvinist. I knew nothing of Calvin or Arminius while I was there. Wonderful hearted people though, and I cherish my memories of working with them.
     
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  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Either one knows for sure one is saved or one does not.

    ". . . He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, . . ." -- 1John 5:12-13.

    ". . . brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: . . ." -- 2 Peter 1:10.

    ". . . Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 13:5.

    ". . . if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. . . . ." -- Romans 8:9.

    ". . . The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: . . ." -- Romans 8:16.
     
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  4. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I agree, sir.:Thumbsup
    God's word alone has taught me everything I currently know about why I'm going to be with Him when I pass from this life.


    With respect, I think that the reason they called themselves "Free Will Baptist" was because they believed and taught that man's will plays the decisive role in determining who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. Free Will Baptist beliefs about salvation also vary from congregation to congregation, from teaching and believing in "Eternal Security", up to and including the loss of salvation, if I'm not mistaken.

    From my comparative denominational studies, they are somewhat similar to the "Churches of Christ", "Bible Missionaries" and "Nazarenes", as well as "Wesleyans", "Methodists" and many others in their understanding of the Gospel, but are different in some practices, including baptism. Essentially, they are descended from the "General Baptists" of England and are similar to today's "Anabaptists", who also believe and teach loss of salvation.

    Some references:

    National Association of Free Will Baptists, Inc

    What Do Free Will Baptists Believe? - First Free Will Baptist Church, Dothan


    " Man receives pardon and forgiveness for his sins when he admits to God that he is a sinner, when in godly sorrow he turns from them and trusts in the work of Christ as redemption for his sin. This acceptance of God’s great salvation involves belief in Christ’s death on the cross as man’s substitute and the fact of God’s raising Him from the dead as predicted. It is a salvation by grace alone and not of works. Therefore, we believe that salvation is the gift of God brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Whose precious blood was shed for the forgiveness of our sins. We believe that all true believers are kept by God’s power, through faith, and are thus secure in Christ."


    The above is the exact, same thing I was taught growing up in IFB churches after I believed on Christ in 1978.



    An analysis of the above quote, if I may:

    "Man receives pardon and forgiveness for his sins when..."

    Certain conditions are met, which I've bolded in the body of the text.
    On the one hand, the church above, who calls themselves "Free Will Baptist", teaches that salvation is by grace and not of works, but on the other, that it is received ( gained ) by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    So, from my perspective, they teach that salvation is gained as a reward for performing an act, and is not strictly a gift given freely by God to whomever He wishes.
    The recipient of God's grace is then "credited" with eternal life for doing something pleasing to God.

    To me, this violates Romans 4:4 and Romans 11:5-6, as well as Titus 3:5-6... which states that it is not by works of righteousness, but according to His mercy He saved us.
    In theory it may seem correct, but in reality it is not entirely of grace, but depends on some contribution of men to "seal the deal".

    All it takes to pollute God's grace is one effort of men, and that moves it from grace, to works.
    If anything in God's work of salvation relies on just one thing a person is responsible to contribute, it's no longer grace.

    It moves from the operation of God, to cooperation with God.

    Admittedly, up until 15 years ago, neither did I.
    But after I read what the Bible has to say about how and why He saved me, I reluctantly had to leave the circle of churches I grew up in.

    As I see it, the early church knew nothing of "free will", OSAS ( "Once Saved, Always Saved" ), or any other popular teacher or teaching of God's word excepting perhaps Paul, Peter, John, Apollos, and a few others. The apostle Paul's inspired writings are where we get most of our information regarding election, predestination, calling, justification and so forth, and mentions something he refers to as "will worship" in Colossians 2:20-23.
    Peter concurs with Paul in his epistles ( since they preached the same Gospel, given to them by revelation, and not men ), and even goes so far as to say that some of what Paul had written in his epistles was hard to understand ( 2 Peter 3:14-16 ).

    But that does not mean that is impossible for the child of God...just that it is difficult.



    May God richly bless you, sir.:)
     
    #4 Dave Gilbert, Dec 22, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
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  5. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Please provide scriptural reference(s) to support that statement. If you can't, I conclude it is based on emotions like many of your memorable expediencies related to Merrimac Pentecostal Holiness church.

    As was posted earlier:
    Likewise, I have never heard of Pastor Vaught.
     
  6. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    In all my studies I liked the Methodist church of the civil war and the Pentecostal Holiness church of WWII the best. The Pentecostal Holiness kept up there methods just like the Methodist 100 years before them. Like the Methodist, whose revivals dissipated away around 1900, the Pentecostal Holiness dissipated away around 2000. Most Pentecostal Holiness churches are trying to get away from the word, "Holiness," so the name of most churches have been changed to something like "Worship Center."

    And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.- Matthew 24:12

    I can refer back to the old Methodist and Pentecostal revivals, but I cannot recommend them, for they have all dissipated away.
     
  7. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    High praise from Charles Stanley, pastor of First Baptist Atlanta:

    Charles Stanley's Pentecostal Holiness heritage

    "I traveled back to my hometown of Dry Fork, Virginia, to celebrate the 100th anniversary of Emmanuel Pentecostal Holiness Church—a church my grandfather, George Washington Stanley, planted....He set up his tent at the corner of Johnson Road and Dry Fork Road and preached his heart out."

    "As I walked through the church, one person after another grabbed my arm to tell me how Grandad had led a dying loved one to the Lord, how God had done miracles of healing through him....It touched me deeply....But what struck me even more profoundly was the spiritual legacy that continued in that congregation. After 100 years, it was still healthy and reaching people with the gospel."

    "My grandfather influenced me, so he has also had an effect on everyone I’ve ever spoken to about Jesus. And as each person I influence speaks to others, my grandfather’s impact expands. In this way, we see that if we are truly serving Jesus, those who follow after us grow our spiritual legacy exponentially."
     
    #7 Jerome, Dec 22, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
  8. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    Spirituality is not emotion. Emotion comes from the flesh, spirituality comes from the spirit. It is important, for the sake of spirituality, that we divide the man into three parts… Physical, Spiritual, and Intellectual. If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

    Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2) And there are three varieties...

    Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma, the sun is the visible form of E/c2
    Mental E/c2 - Our thinking can produce creativeness, light, and good things
    Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

    The Natural E/c2 in the form of mass produces a gravity that attracts other objects
    The Intellectual E/c2 produces a gravity that draws us to study
    The Spiritual E/c2 also has a gravity that draws and makes religion attractive

    Darkness - The opposite of energy and light would be absolute zero (Z) and darkness (d). Spiritually, this would generate absolute zero (Z) – Laziness, coldness, and hatred / darkness (d) – Fear, depression, greed, and sorrow.

    Emotions are activity that happens with the interactions of light and darkness. Sorrowful events, such as what causes depression and joy can make us emotional. Joyful events such as what causes light, as when a favorite team wins, can cause us to get emotional. So the emotional tears can be results of the interaction with light or darkness, pertaining to the event.

    Spirituality is not emotion, but can make us emotional. There are some people, even Christians, who shy away from what they label emotional. But, spirituality will make one emotional and it can encourage intellectual thought as well...
     
  9. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    What distinguished the Methodist of the 1800's and the Pentecostal Holiness of the 1900's was an experience called sanctification. You are saved by acknowledging and inviting Christ Jesus into the heart... But they would have you attend the many revivals and spend time around the altar in prayer before they would allow you to claim sanctification. When you came through to sanctification you would possess a sweet, Christ like spirit, such as we had in Charles Stanley. When you got sanctified they would tell you that the baptism was not that far away. There have been many Pentecostal Holiness who have went on to the Baptist church and I have heard the word, "Pente-Baptist" from more than one of them, indicating they were more Baptist than Pentecostal Holiness....

    The place to pick up sanctification was also known as the mourners bench back in the 1800's. After hearing a message with conviction behind the pulpit the parishioners would gather around the altar for prayer...

    [​IMG]

    Sanctification was also picked up with love, warmth, and a Walton like spirit. If you had not this spirit the old timers would tell you that you don't have it yet... Come back tomorrow night! And smile a little as they would say it. The old timers used to say that the first person to know you have been sanctified were the family pets. Instead of kicking them you would show them love and affection. An old story goes of a farmer seeking sanctification. He gets angry at his horse for not plowing straight wind-rows and begins to whip his horse. His wife then hollers out the screen door, "Not yet honey! Not yet!" Knowing that such a spirit could not have experienced sanctification.
     
  10. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    I missed the scriptural references.
     
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  11. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. - 1 Cor 13:13

    No intellect here as the knowledge has been vanished away.
     
  12. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I missed the references for this, as well.

    1) Salvation ( God granting the gift of eternal life ) by acknowledging Christ.
    2) Salvation ( God granting the gift of eternal life ) by inviting Christ into the heart.

    I see Scripture teaching this:

    1) Salvation ( God granting the gift of eternal life ) based on His purposes and grace ( Ephesians 1:4-13, 2 Timothy 1:9 ), not based on any works of righteousness ( Titus 3:5-6 ).
    2) Salvation ( God granting the gift of eternal life ) accompanied by a heart change ( John 3:6-7, 1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:4 ) and the Spirit of Christ indwelling the believer ( Ephesians 1:13 ) after He has caused them to "hear" ( John 8:47 ) the Gospel and believe ( John 6:29 ).

    The sinner does not invite Christ in, He invades the life of one of His sheep and changes their heart ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 33:19 ) by His own power and grace ( again, Titus 3:4-7 ).
    Christ then invites one of His sheep to open the door and let Him in ( Revelation 3:19-22 ) when they wander away from Him in their attentions.



    "Calvinists" call it, "Irresistible Grace", while I call it a love that patiently waits and overcomes all obstacles in its path.
    So...."Irresistible Grace". :Cool

    God loves His children more than they will likely know this side of eternity...but it's all in His word ( Ephesians 2:4-10 ).:)
     
    #12 Dave Gilbert, Dec 23, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
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  13. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Respectfully, I know what a "revival" is, but I can't seem to find such a thing in Scripture.

    Spiritual correction and admonition that leads to repentance, yes ( Psalms 38:18, Psalms 51, 2 Corinthians 7:9-10 ), but not emotional "revival".
    To me, the term "revival" denotes an event ( usually filled with appeals to the emotions and the will, like the "invitation system" I grew up with and that some say was popularized by Charles Finney ) that is designed to do one thing:

    Promote religious zeal.

    They attempt to cause people who were "dead" ( outwardly ) towards God to become "alive" ( outwardly ) to Him in their motivations.
    However, based on Scripture, man-made "revivals" don't result in a permanent change, God's miraculous work brought on by His power and choice, does.

    That's why man-made "revivals" tend to "peter out", and only last a few weeks or a few months, while real regeneration leads to a life-change that is characterized by a consistent, growing love for God and His ways, and is accompanied by constant, outward correction that is inwardly generated...repentance that comes from the heart; inside, not outside.
    Try researching the Azusa Street Revival, Brownsville, Toronto, Branson and a host of other charismatic happenings over the past 200-300 years, and I think you will see the difference.

    As for spending time around a mourner's bench or "altar":

    Why the need for a physical altar, when believers have their own "altar"...the altar of their heart ( Psalms 34:18, Psalms 51:17, Joel 2:13, Hebrews 13:9-10 )?...
    Why did the Pentecostal Holiness churches demand an outward show of repentance before being allowed to claim sanctification; that which is already promised in God's sight to those who believe ( Romans 8:29-30, 1 Corinthians 1:2, 1 Corinthians 6:11, Ephesians 5:25-26, Hebrews 10:14, Hebrews 13:12 ), which took place at the cross ( Hebrews 10:10 ), and that we are commanded to do by the Lord ( 1 Peter 3:15, James 4:8 ) inwardly?

    To me, modern day "revivals" are a man-made, physical, outward manufacturing of that which God works in His children at the spiritual, heart level.
    They do not last, and the "flames" always need to be re-kindled; While in a child of God, the "flame" is always there, it just gets brighter or dimmer depending on how much time we spend with the Lord and where we are in relation to our spiritual growth.

    In the early church I see prayer ( Acts of the Apostles 1:14 ) and I see the filling of the Holy Ghost ( Acts of the Apostles 4:31 ), but I don't see "revivals" like those that happened during the "Second Great Awakening" in America.


    With all due regard to you personally, I don't see what is pictured in your post as represented in the Bible.:(
     
    #13 Dave Gilbert, Dec 23, 2018
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  14. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I see God's word describing the filling of the Spirit as what you have described above.

    I agree, but not with the description in the underlined.
    To me, when a child of God has drawn nigh to God, God draws nigh to them ( James 4:8 ).

    As I see it, what you call the "baptism", is the fullness of God's Spirit in a person ( Acts of the Apostles 13:52, Ephesians 5:18 ), and is brought on by God Himself.
    From my experience and perspective, it isn't something that we as believers can "trigger", but something that God does through us when He wants ( Philippians 2:13 ), not when we want.

    Sound contrary?
    It isn't.
    It just looks that way.;)

    When the Lord wants to work something in one of His children, He causes them to draw nigh to Him, and He then fills them with the Spirit to do the work...whether speaking, preaching, or anything else relating to spiritual gifts. :)

    Again, that is not exactly my experience, nor my exact understanding of it from Scripture;
    Quite the contrary, the Lord caused me to have the above experiences, and yes, it was exactly like you describe...full of love and affection towards others, and a suppression of the flesh, especially of anger and frustration.

    After the first time it happened, I initially believed that it was caused as you describe above.
    However, I now understand that He caused me to be filled...I did not cause Him to fill me.
    In the same way that God chooses someone and causes them to approach ( Psalms 65:4 ), He caused me to approach.


    Scripturally, I see it happening like this:

    Acts of the Apostles 2:1-4 tells me that the disciples at Jerusalem were all gathered together in one place, and the Spirit came and filled them...not that they were gathered to cause Him to do it, but that they were gathered in anticipation of Him doing it :

    "and, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me.
    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."
    ( Acts of the Apostles 1:4-5 )

    God's children are baptized with the Holy Spirit when He comes in to seal them at their conversion ( Ephesians 1:13 ), and they are filled with the Spirit when He decides to use them for His glory ( Acts of the Apostles 6:8, Philippians 2:13 ).
    Like Paul was "given utterance" ( Ephesians 6:19 ) and the disciples were prompted to speak in tongues at Jerusalem ( Acts of the Apostles 2:1-4 ), so are God's children equipped by the Holy Ghost to do that which God has for them to do, in the moment(s) that He wants them to work.



    Apologies for the long posts.:oops:

    May God bless you.:)
     
    #14 Dave Gilbert, Dec 23, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
  15. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    The Apostle Paul once said... "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you...." (Galatians 4:19) The event when Christ is formed in the character we of the Methodist background call sanctification. And notice.... "Travail in birth again" in which case.... The good fruits of the Spirit can dissipate away.
     
  16. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    No offense intended, but I don't see the above described in Scripture...
    I see this:

    " Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." ( John 15:16 )

    Christ told His disciples that their fruit would remain...not dissipate away.

    Those fruits are these:

    " But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
    24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
    ( Galatians 5:22-24 )

    The fruits of the Spirit's indwelling are always there...they just sometimes compete with the works of the flesh, until a person is sufficiently grown, spiritually.
    The presence of God's Spirit in a person will naturally produce fruit:

    30-fold, 60-fold, or 100-fold ( Matthew 13:18-23 ).:)
     
    #16 Dave Gilbert, Dec 23, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
  17. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    Well... If a Christian church can maintain the spirituality then I will take my hat off to them.
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The view point of asking Jesus into one's heart or having the Holy Spirit in the heart is often spoken of. And typically if you ask them, those who have made such statements cannot provide any scripture support for what they have said. But there are two passages which should be noted:

    ". . . And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. . . ." -- Galatians 4:6.

    ". . . That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, . . ." -- Ephesians 3:17.
     
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  19. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Then take your hat off to the living God and to His Son, Jesus Christ. :Notworthy
    He is the one who makes humanity's messes into His children, who walk with Him in ever-increasing holiness and obedience the more they grow, spiritually.:)

    ...and He is the only one who deserves the praise and worship for what only He can do:
    Save someone, overcome the power of the flesh, and cause His children to walk worthy of their calling ( 1 Corinthians 1:26-31, Galatians 5:16-17, 2 Peter 1:10 )

    Please see Romans 8:1-17.
     
  20. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. - Jude 1:4

    Turning the grace of God into lasciviousness, or lustful behavior.

    But in our case they have turned the grace of God into ego, or arrogance. I find myself reminding folk that the unction of God is not human ego. The apostle Paul said that just a little of that makes the whole bad. And I believe, ruins the spirituality.
     
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