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Featured No need of Calvin, OSAS, Arminius, Spurgeon, Luther, and Boice

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by rockytopva, Dec 21, 2018.

  1. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    " Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
    4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
    5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
    6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
    8 Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
    9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves."
    ( Jude 1:3-10 )

    3) Here the Lord, through Jude, is writing to believers to remind them of their salvation, and that they should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered ( given to, by God ) to the saints.
    4) Because there are certain men who have crept into the churches who were before of old ( in eternity past ) ordained ( appointed ) to this condemnation:

    What is that condemnation?

    They are ungodly men ( those who behave in an ungodly fashion ) who try to change the grace of God into lasciviousness ( wantonness, lustful behaviour ), and who deny both God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Can you think of any who do that today, and are not ashamed of it?

    Here's more:

    2 Peter 2.

    Back to Jude:

    8) These dreamers ( the certain men crept in unawares from verse 4 ) defile the flesh ( commit adultery, fornication, etc. ), despise dominion ( sovereignty, control, supreme authority ) and speak evil things against dignities ( those of high rank or authority in governmental positions of power ).
    9) As an example, even Micheal the archangel, who stands for the people of God ( Daniel 12:1 ) dared not bring a railing accusation against the Devil, but committed it to the Lord.So should we ( Romans 12:9, Titus 3:1-3 )
    10) Those who rail against authorities and the truth, speak against the things they do not know, but what they naturally know as unregenerate men ( the Lord calls them "brute beasts" ) who were made by Him to be taken and destroyed ( 2 Peter 2:12 ).
     
    #21 Dave G, Dec 23, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
  2. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    The Scripture says lasciviousness, not arrogance or ego.

    One can understand the Scripture and be able to answer things from it, without being prideful.
    One can also slide into pride, even as a child of God.

    That is why He reminds us not to go beyond what is written ( 1 Corinthians 4:6 ), and not to be high-minded ( Romans 11:20 ).
    However, one cannot be one of God's ministers, and bring forth bad fruit ( Galatians 1:19-21 ) that remains, and that turn the grace of God into lustful behavior or works of the Law ( Galatians 1:6-10 ). ;)

    In truth, God's servants are humble and answer in meekness ( 2 Timothy 2:25 ), but are still bound by their rotten flesh and fight it everyday.
    With the power of the Holy Spirit, they overcome it ( Galatians 5:16-17 ).

    Paul told believers that a little leaven ( the leaven of works and hypocrisy, see Matthew 16:6, Mark 8:15 and Luke 12:1 ) leavens the whole lump ( Galatians 5:1-9 )
    With respect, understanding and explaining Scripture is not what is in focus here.

    Introducing the works of the Law, and making the grace of God through Jesus Christ of no effect, is.


    May His mercy and grace to you be always in your thoughts.:)
     
    #22 Dave G, Dec 23, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
  3. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    Paul said....

    Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? - 1 Corinthians 5:6

    And...

    26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
    27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
    28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
    29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. -1 Corinthians

    I could present a lot of scripture showing God’s disapproval of the human ego.
     
  4. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but to me, that is not what's in focus with the passages you are listing.
    In 1 Corinthians 5, what were they glorying in?

    " It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
    2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you."
    ( 1 Corinthians 5:1-2 )

    It wasn't ego about Scriptural understanding, it was pride about their sin.

    Question:
    Do you look at elders who have more scriptural understanding than someone who is newly converted, and accuse them of being prideful?
    Do you regard those who labor in the word and doctrine as being prideful, if it seems they are talking over someone's head?


    I'm just curious.;)

    I can tell you, having sat at the feet of some, that most are not being prideful.
    They regard their understanding of Scripture as having come from God, and not by their own efforts.

    In fact, I don't believe I've ever met a prideful teacher of God's word yet...except false ones. That isn't to say there aren't some of God's children who aren't affected by pride, it's just that I have yet to meet one. :)
     
    #24 Dave G, Dec 23, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
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  5. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    God speaking here...

    Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. - Job 40:11-12

    And remember the chastisement Moses got for calling the children of Israel rebels, even to the point of denying him entree to the promise land. And Paul a thorn in the flesh lest he be exalted above measure.
     
  6. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    How does this apply to men who delve into Scripture to find answers, and who then relate those answers to others?
    Are you saying that those who dig into Scripture to find answers are being prideful, if their answers are not easily understood?

    Respectfully, has it occurred to you that studying is what God wants His children to do, so that they are not carried about with every wind of doctrine, and that they can one day rightly divided the word of truth?
     
    #26 Dave G, Dec 23, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
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  7. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    “In Bible college, I sometimes heard professors and chapel speakers say that a Christian college was the easiest place to backslide. What they said about Bible college applies as well to the ministry. The emphasis is simply that serving Christ cannot be a substitute for fellowship with Christ. Working for Him must never take the place of walking with Him.” – My old Baptist preacher, who would take time to teach Bible classes at the local Seminary

    And what initiates the backslide?

    Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. - 1 Corinthians 8:1
     
  8. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    Some people have so much ego, like the rich young ruler, that God cannot get a spiritual blessing in there edgewise, as the camel is much too big to go through the eye of the needle, so the ego inhibits the blessing from getting through, much like the clouds inhibiting the sunlight on an overcast day.

    For many the ego is akin to a dog chewing on a bone. If you attempt to take the bone away, as it is his most valuable possession, he will bite you and defend his bone. The ego was also the leaven of the Pharisees, who even early on refused to be baptized of John.
     
  9. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    And we also have Moses recorded as being very meek...

    (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.) - Numbers 12:3
     
  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Quite right, sir.
    Knowledge puffs up and charity edifies.
    So, in the interests of seeking your edification ( building you up in the faith ) I have decided that the best thing that I can do is to take my leave of this thread.


    Respectfully, what I see in your OP is a mistrust for those who dig into Scripture and come up with answers that seem hard to understand.
    Yes, I, too have had my own battles with this.
    Therefore, I encourage you to do what I did some 15 years ago...read the Scriptures for yourself, and test all teachings by it, and it alone.
    Divorce yourself from prominent preachers and teachers, and throw out any books that you may have on "theology"...from my perspective, they will only get in the way.;)


    One day, come back to those prominent preachers and teachers, and see how much they were right or wrong compared to your own digging into His word.
    I think you'll find it an eye-opener.:Cool

    Again, I disagree.

    It was their dependence on keeping the works of Law, and not the righteousness which is by faith.
    They took pride in the fact that they were saved by their own efforts, and not strictly by God's grace and mercy.
    Their hearts were far from God, and that is why they refused to be baptized by John's baptism of repentance...because they didn't think they needed to repent.

    The Pharisees were the opposite, in their hearts, to the publican, who beat his chest and asked God, "Be merciful to me a sinner!"
    The publican's heart had been changed by the miraculous working of God's Spirit. :Smile

    And yet, Moses was a very angry man in the flesh who was guilty of murder...killing an Egyptian with his bare hands.
    See what the power of God can do to someone who is guilty of even murder?
    It changes the heart, like it changed David's, who was also guilty of having a man murdered to cover up his sin with Bathsheba...yet, he was a man after God's own heart. :Cool

    The flesh, and yielding to it.
    In addition, there is no such thing as a child of God being "backslidden" like the children of Israel were; The power of the Holy Spirit prevents it.
    To me, that's "cultural Christianity" talking, and I learned to speak that way in IFB churches some 40 years ago.

    The children of God cannot "backslide" permanently, because their natures have been changed.
    They do, however, have trouble with sins that beset them ( Hebrews 12:1 ).
    "Backsliding" only applies to religious people who fall away from "the rules", not to born again believers who wrestle with their flesh, but are kept by the power of God unto salvation ( 1 Peter 1:5 ), which cannot be lost.
    God's children love Him, and keep His commandments out of a pure heart, not for fear of losing their salvation.

    Again, apologies for the long post.


    I wish you well, sir.
    May God bless you abundantly, and may you and yours have a happy New Year. :)
     
    #30 Dave G, Dec 23, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
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  11. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    Pride being compared to the devil...

    5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
    6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
    7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. - James 4

    Was not this the original sin? When Lucifer thought through pride to exalt himself above God himself? Not only, then, is not ego the unction of the Holy Spirit, but ego is the earliest of error!
     
    #31 rockytopva, Dec 23, 2018
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  12. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. - James 3:17

    In which the teachings of Calvin are too heavy to be classified as wisdom from above.
     
  13. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    Why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?

    48 As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
    49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
    50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

    The old ego tops the list!
     
  14. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    That's cuz "Holiness" is associated with "churches" where, as the preacher gets wound up, he starts screeching & becoming incoherent, & many of the congregation goes to the floor & begins cutting dust angels, while babbling incoherently themselves I once attended such a "service" & wondered who'd emptied the funny farm.

    Whatever spirit was there, it was not the HOLY Spirit. He's God, & God is not the author of confusion.

    "Having a FORM of Godliness, but denying its POWER."
     
  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Lotsa other places had pride, etc. but Sodom & Gomorrah were both full of gays. That was the "abominations" God mentioned.
     
  16. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    You won’t find those kinds on any of the videos I post. You will find such men, again, under the unction of ego, and not of the Holy Spirit.
     
  17. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    Nothing in that passage referring to gays...
     
  18. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    Plenty, though, on the old fleshly ego...

    48 As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
    49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
    50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. - Ezekiel 16
     
  19. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    The message below was preached at my old Baptist church in the 1970’s by a young preacher of a Wesleyan university. There was no yelling or screaming... Yet he would preach with a conviction that would bring all to the altar for prayer.


     
  20. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    But, in this day and time I doubt that most young people have ever heard of Calvin, OSAS, Arminius, Spurgeon, Luther, or Boice.
     
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