1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured No Salvation Without the Human Element

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JD731, Jul 7, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    560
    Likes Received:
    101
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God is not saving anyone without the faithful witness of another person. Our New Testament is a compilation of the testimonies of eye witnesses of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ who heard his teachings. Anyone who is saved must believe what these men wrote. There is no other way that God is making himself and his doctrines known to us. The only people who ever saw the resurrected Lord Jesus, with the exception of Paul on the Damascus Road, (whose conversion is a typical teaching of God's purpose in saving a remnant of Israel), were those who were already believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, men were "justified" by faith in what God said to them. Their faith in what God said was "imputed" to them by God for righteousness. Believers were justified before the cross but their sins were not washed away. However, justification is only one of several parts of salvation. Salvation is accomplished when men receive the Holy Ghost and are sealed by him unto the day of redemption of the body. Now, since the cross, our Lord Jesus Christ is made unto us "justification." We believe what men have witnessed and reported about God.If we do not hear it or read it we cannot be saved because God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe and he says the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    The scriptures say in Romans 10 that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God and whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. The rhetorical question is then, "how can they call on him in whom they have not believed and how shall they believe on him in whom they have not heard and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    The first gentile to ever be saved, Cornelius of Acts 10, an Italian, desired to be saved and God did not save him until he had sent for a preacher of the gospel of Christ who preached to him and his household. Salvation for them was simultaneous with receiving the Holy Ghost into their mortal bodies, when they believed the witness of the preacher. Cornelius had all the evidence of a believer before he received the gift of the Spirit, but he was not saved until God gave him the Spirit, according to Peter in his defense of his actions to the Jews in the next chapter. I believe Peter's report. Here it is;

    Acts 11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
    6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
    7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
    8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
    9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
    10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
    11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
    12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
    13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
    14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    There are synonyms in this account.

    The Gift of God, the Holy Ghost, salvation, eternal life. There is no greater instruction in salvation than this account and it has nothing to do with being elected before creation. Salvation from the penalty of sin comes by believing and it does not come until then. It comes to whoever believes, not to whoever is elected before creation. The witness must come through the agency of men. Acts 10 and 11 proves this beyond doubt. Salvation was not given to Cornelius only on this day but to gentiles who before this had not been given the Spirit.

    I am a saved man preaching salvation through Christ to all who will believe.Will you believe?

    Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    The blessing of Abraham is the Spirit of Christ , who is salvation, according to the text.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    3,659
    Likes Received:
    944
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am reluctant to tell God what He ALWAYS or NEVER does ... just sayin'. :Coffee
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    560
    Likes Received:
    101
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thanks atpollard, your reluctance is noted but you can trust the written record. That is where I got my information.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,353
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Amen .
     
  5. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,353
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Great post . Just a question to understand . What did you mean about Paul's conversion above ?
     
  6. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,353
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Baptist
     
  7. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    3,659
    Likes Received:
    944
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So where does Scripture say: "God is not saving anyone without the faithful witness of another person."
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  8. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    4,876
    Likes Received:
    907
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Certainly God has chosen to use the message of reconciliation through his human ambassadors to bring the gift of faith to God's elect. This is evidenced in scripture and in personal testimonies. Like Cornelius, however, God does, at times, lay the ground work and preparation for his ambassadors through dreams and signs. Today there are many testimonies coming from regions in the world that are closed to Christianity that tell us God is preparing the message in dreams. Specifically, brothers and sisters in Christ are telling us of people in Muslim countries who are having dreams that prepare the way for the gospel. Iran is growing daily in converts as God visits people in dreams.
    Since Jesus gave us the great commission, it is our role and duty to obey and be the ambassadors God chose us to be. Yet, we must remember that it is all God who is changing the hearts and choosing to take dead persons and make them alive with Christ.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    560
    Likes Received:
    101
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Genesis through Revelation. Here is an example .

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    No Calvinist who ever lived has ever quoted verse 45 when using verse 44 to prove their election to salvation doctrine. Why? Because the scripture plainly says that "EVERY MAN" that has heard and hath learned of the Father cometh unto me. Faith cometh by hearing what God has said. Faith is the only principle that God knows anything about in the justification of sinners. The sinners of Israel to whom our Lord Jesus was speaking in John 6 said that those who would come to him are those who believed what the prophets of God had written in his record. That is the method of God drawing Israel to himself. Paul, writing to gentiles in his 13 letters to us did not even use the word "draw," much less in the context of salvation.

    Now, God did not write anything to you in the Old Testament. He does not require you to believe the prophets. He does require you to believe what he says about Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Here is proof;

    Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
    30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

    Why?

    31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Here is another:

    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    The gospel is the power or the authority of God unto salvation for you and me and to EVERY man who will believe it. That was not the power in John 6. We could be saved without the OT but we cannot be saved without the NT record. Romans 1:16 says the gospel of Christ saves us and the definition of the gospel is given here.

    1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


    Election is not the gospel nor is it a part of the gospel. The very people that our Lord Jesus Christ was addressing in John 6 were the elect of God. They refused to believe the scriptures, the voice of God from heaven, John the Baptist, and the miracles that Jesus did.

    For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

    God has not changed his mind about the election of Israel.

    There is no salvation in Calvinism. It is a gross perversion of the ways of God. I tell you this out of love and concern. We do you no service by going along with Calvinism as if it is the Christian gospel. It is unbelief.
     
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    16,099
    Likes Received:
    2,063
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Could God have possibly placed a heavier burden on you than the eternal destiny of others?

    How many will have been damned to an infinity of torture on account of slackness on your part?
     
    #10 kyredneck, Jul 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
    • Winner Winner x 3
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    16,099
    Likes Received:
    2,063
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Scripture emphatically denies such a premise. Here's a threefold denial of any human involvement in the birth from above:

    13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  12. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    560
    Likes Received:
    101
    Faith:
    Baptist

    May I just correct one error in your comments? You may search the scriptures to see if what I say is true and you will find that it is. It is the issue of "the gift of faith" in salvation. Faith is not a gift of God, it is a principle of divine dealing with men. It is not God who has faith, it is men. Men are given evidence of God's person and presence so they might believe and be saved. Men are not given faith to believe the gospel. Following is the biblical definition of faith;

    Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    Here is what it does.

    2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    This truth is illustrated by all the personalities following in this chapter. For instance Noah, having been told of God that he was going to send a flood upon the earth built an ark. What was the evidence of his faith in what God said. It was the ark he built having never seen rain. In verse 6 God said without faith it is impossible to please God. In all the illustrations of this truth they ordered their lives in accordance with what God had said to them.

    What is "the" gift of God? It is eternal life, righteousness, the indwelling Holy Ghost, salvation from the penalty of sin, all synonyms. Is there a "gift of faith" in the scriptures? Yes, but it is not the gift of God to sinners, it is "A" gift of the Spirit of God to certain members in the body of Christ that he is forming in this age. The gifts, or enablements are given to some members but entirely at the discretion of the Spirit who gives them. The following should prove this.

    1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

    4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

    7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
    8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
    9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

    10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

    11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

    12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

    Rom 12 is also in the context of spiritual gifts, not THE gift of God.

    3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
    4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
    5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
    6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
    7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
    8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

    Search the scriptures. Faith to believe God is not the gift God gives men. It is found nowhere in the written record. We ought to be able to agree on that seeing as how we have the same bible and we can look for ourselves.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    3,659
    Likes Received:
    944
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That directly contradicts your claim. Verse 44 explicitly states that the FATHER draws ... the Father is not "another person". Verse 45 quotes the prophets as saying "they" (aka. "anyone being saved") are "taught of God" and "learned of the Father" ... once again, GOD the FATHER is not "another person".

    Your "proof text" actually refutes your claim that "God is not saving anyone without the faithful witness of another person."

    Frankly, I don't think that you have really thought through the consequences of this absolute limitation that you have placed on God's methodology of saving. By your "rules" every infant that dies having never received the "faithful witness of another person" is unsaved, and must therefore have a destiny among the rest of the unsaved. Every person in the remaining unreached people groups has also never received the "faithful witness of another person" is automatically unsaved. That would apply to every person living in the Western Hemisphere prior to the arrival of Columbus.

    Your position negates parts of Romans ... the witness of the heavens and creation is not sufficient to leave men without excuse.

    So I ask again, where does scripture teach that "God is not saving anyone without the faithful witness of another person"?

    Since YOU have brought up Genesis to Revelation, was Moses "saved" and what "person" was his "faithful witness"?
     
  14. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    3,659
    Likes Received:
    944
    Faith:
    Baptist
    :confused:
    ... nowhere except in the very scripture you posted to prove that it wasn't there!

    • It said FAITH is GIVEN by the Spirit (The Holy Spirit is GOD to every trinitarian).

    • it says that the "measure" of FAITH that every man has, was DEALT (that means 'GIVEN') by GOD.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    560
    Likes Received:
    101
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Context is our friend. No man, with the exception of one was ever born into the world who was the son of God. Jesus Christ is the "only" begotten son of God in the flesh. However, John is not writing about being born in the flesh, he is writing about being born again by the Spirit. He is not writing about how to become a son of man, but how a son of man becomes a son of God.It is not by blood because, unlike the natural man, the life of a man he is speaking of here is not in the blood but it is the Spirit of God, who is life, (rom 8:9)

    Jn 1:4 In him (Jesus Christ) was life; and the life was the light of men.

    What do you think this life was that was in Jesus Christ?

    Jn 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    The answer to the question is the Spirit of God. God says in the OT that the life of the flesh is in the blood. Our natural birth gives us that life but John is speaking of a life that is not of blood but is the Spirit of God.

    Cornelius wanted the life of God in Acts 10. He prayed, fasted, and gave alms to Israel but that did not give him life or the new birth. It was not until the merciful and gracious God had opened the door of faith through Peter that Cornelius and his household experience the new birth and became children of God. He was the first gentile to ever experience the new birth and it was ten years after the first man received the Spirit and became a son of God. The point is that God was the only one who could give his Spirit and birth sinners into his family. It is completely in his hands and that is the point of John 1:14.

    Now, let us look at context:

    10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    11 He came unto his own (Israel), and his own received him not.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Notice the past tense verbs in the verses above. John wrote this in AD 90 and he lived it with Jesus Christ while it was happening. No one was born again until after the resurrection of Christ and it was not just people who were born of the seed of Abraham but it was any and all who believed in Jesus Christ. This was written after the ministry of Paul and all the apostles.John knew and had observed that what he was writing was true. The Spirit of Christ that he poured out of his body that awful day on Calvary is that which gives the believer in Christ life.

    How then does a sinner with earthly fathers become a son of God? It is by receiving the Spirit of God through faith in what Jesus Christ did for us in paying the penalty for our sins on the cross. Now, read this passage I am going to quote very carefully, believe it, and be saved.

    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    Look at this;

    Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    Quickening is a birth.

    Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, This birth is of God.

    But, who can be born this way?

    5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    That is exactly what the history as recorded in the Acts shows.It was in Acts 10 when the nations first began to experience the new birth by the Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ and it continues to this very day. I have the Spirit of God in me. I am evidence of this truth.

    Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    Those who believe in Jesus Christ are saved. Pre-creation election to salvation is a myth and a false gospel. The scriptures knows nothing about this.

    Please accept this in the spirit is is given.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    16,099
    Likes Received:
    2,063
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Could God have possibly placed a heavier burden on you than the eternal destiny of others?

    How many will have been damned to an infinity of torture on account of slackness on your part?
     
  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    4,876
    Likes Received:
    907
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You correctly recognize that God only gives the gift of faith to those whom he has made alive with Christ. Therefore, no "dead in your trespasses and sins" person can have faith. They cannot believe until God chooses to make them alive with Christ (by grace you are saved). Once God has graciously saved a person (by God's choice, not by man's choice), God gives that person the gift of faith to believe. No human can boast about their faith. It isn't their faith. It is God who gifted them the faith to believe. Read Ephesians 2:1-10 to understand.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    560
    Likes Received:
    101
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I take it you do not believe the many passages I gave to prove my point? When scripture says that God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe and that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God and how can they hear without a preacher, is it me that you do not believe or is it the scriptures?

    If you claim to be born again would you mind telling me how it happened and did it have anything to do with what you heard about Jesus Christ? How can you be sure you are saved?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    16,099
    Likes Received:
    2,063
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You haven't proven anything except that you're a flaming free willer that would place a horrendous burden on Christians that not even those under the law had to bear. We're not even responsible for our own eternal destiny, far much less anyone else's.
     
  20. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    560
    Likes Received:
    101
    Faith:
    Baptist


    So you disagree with what I stated about God using the testimony of men to make known his salvation to other men. I get that. However, It seems to me that name calling indicates you are out of bullets and cannot fire back with a substantive reason for your disagreement. I was hoping for a reasoned debate but if someone is out to prove Calvinism in spite of what the scriptures say then all hope for reasoned debate is out the window.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...