Featured No Salvation Without the Human Element

Well someone either hears the Gospel from someone or they read it themselves, either way they have to have heard it from somewhere. I don't think a human element HAS to be involved, but the person who hears it (whatever way that is) makes the human free will choice to either accept or reject Jesus.

EDIT: OK, I agree that a human element is always involved since if you talk about someone reading a bible which was printed by human hands, yes. that is a human element. Disregard my above statement. Either way. God DOES get the glory. No matter what

 

Wrong. Jesus gives us all a way to heaven, we have to choose Him or reject Him. That doesn't take away the glory God deserves and gets from being the merciful Giver who offers salvation. You're misunderstanding the whole purpose of a gift. The gifter gets the glory, not the reciever. Why would you praise a person that is given 100 dollars? He didn't DO anything to deserve it, but the person giving it gets all the glory for being merciful and kind enough to give said person the money. Pure logic. If you are wise enough in God to understand this parable.

Satan gives temptation, and temptation only, which leads to sin, which leads to death. God offers Life through His one and only son Jesus Christ. Amen. Glory to God in the highest!!

 

Just to say that I am a Gideon and I have known a couple of people who have been saved by reading the word without anyone else about. I have read of several more in Gideon magazines.

What does the word of God say?
James 1:18. 'Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth.......' Whose will? Just sayin'
1 Peter 1:23. '....Having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.'

However, God's usual method of bringing the word to sinners is through preaching or witnessing. 'For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.' Please note that it is not the preaching or the preacher that saves - it is God.

God is sovereign; He didn't have to save people through preaching. He could have done it by having them stand on their heads and recite the alphabet backwards. And if He wants He can use another method. We hear of Moslems coming to faith through dreams. I have no experience of that happening, but we must be careful not to limit the holy One of Israel (c.f. Psalms 115:3).

But turn for a moment to Acts 16:14. 'Now a Certain woman called Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God [that is, she was a Gentile who attended a Jewish synagogue]. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.' Now how was Lydia saved. Did she open her own heart to receive the word? Nope! Did Paul, by his wondrous oratory open her heart? Not that either. 'The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by God.'

You will understand these things eventually, when you stand before the throne of God with that vast crowd of every tribe, tongue, people and nation, and cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Revelation 7:9-10).

 

I am a Five Point believer in Definite Atonement (i.e. Calvinist) and I have exactly the same testimony, save that, as in the case of Lydia, God opened my heart to believe.

 

Calvinist or whatever -insert denomination- you are, if you believe Christ as your Lord and Savior you are all good

 

29 For whom He foreknew, (that is, whom He KNEW WHO WOULD CHOOSE HIM) He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; (so how could God have called those whom did not have a choice to answer the call or not?) whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)

Scripture is plain. It is proof that God calls everyone to repentance and to belief in Him, but not all choose to come to Him.

Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent. (Acts 17:30)

 

@JD731,
You seem to be labouring under the delusion that Calvinists do not believe that people need to believe in Christ in order to be saved. To put it no more strongly, this is not true. The issue between us is whether people will believe unless God first does a work upon their hearts. This, the Scriptures tell us, they will not do.
John 3:19. "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men preferred darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
John 10:26. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep...." [Note that He does not say, "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe"]
Acts 13:48b. 'And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.'
1 Corinthians 2:14. 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.'
Ephesians 1:4-6. '....Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.'

Let us consider the case of Lazarus. Lazarus is dead (John 11:14). He has been dead for quite some time. How shall we raise Lazarus from his tomb? Well, we can point out to him the seriousness of his position. Being dead is not a good state to be in, we might say. We can tell him how much better it is to be alive and how much more fun he would have if he were. We can even try telling him how much God loves him, how much He wants Lazarus to stop being dead and what a great plan God has for his life; we can reason with him, we can plead with him, but it won’t do any good because Lazarus can’t hear us. He’s dead.

In fact, it’s even worse than that, because, quite frankly, Lazarus is a bit of a stinker (v39); he’s in a bad odour with God. He’s not only dead, but he’s dead in trespasses and sins. He has no right to come back to life. There is nothing in Lazarus that makes him worthy of life (Titus 3:3-7). There’s nothing that we can do for Lazarus in our own strength, but when the almighty Son of God declares, “Lazarus, come forth” (v43), then although he has died, and although he is bound hand and foot, Lazarus will indeed come forth from among the dead to new birth (c.f. John 5:25).

Jonah knew it (Jonah 2:9). The great crowd around the throne at the last day will know it. Why don't you know it? 'Salvation is of the LORD'

 

Should calvernists preach at the cemetery?

 

There are more than two hundred places in the New Testament where the condition for salvation is spelled out, and in all these, cases faith or belief is given as the one and only condition.

One must believe that Jesus has accomplished the salvation work on one's behalf. To be saved, one must believe not just that He died, but that He died for one's own sins. If one believes that Yeshua the Messiah died for his sins, that presupposes that one has confessed that he is a sinner. If Yeshua died for one's sins, obviously it means that he is a sinner. So one must believe that Yeshua died for his sins as his substitute, was buried and rose again, and therefore has provided salvation. Thus, one trusts Yeshua for his salvation.

This is the condition of salvation: faith must be placed in the Messiah as one's substitute for and as one's Savior from the penalty of sin.

First the word “faith” is used as “conviction that something is true.” Secondly, faith is used as “trust.” Thirdly, faith is used as “persuaded,” and it is stronger than mere opinion, though it is weaker than foreknowledge. Fourthly, faith is used as “belief based upon the facts of knowledge” (Rom. 10:14). And fifth, faith must have an object. The object of faith is God, while the content of faith is the death of the Messiah for one's sins, His burial and Resurrection.

If we are saved because of our faith then we aren't saved by what our faith is in. We are saved thru believing in the finished work not because we believe the finished work. The work of God saves and we receive the benefit of that work by trusting that that work alone is sufficient payment in the eyes of God our Father to satisfy His requirement for our sins, that payment is the blood of the only begotten Son of God.
Indeed my brothers and sisters the blood of Messiah is of infinite value.

 

Nothing but net.

 

Thank you for your kind words. The fact is, I seldom post on this forum. The discussions are rarely edifying and no one ever changes his mind. I only broke in because someone mentioned the Gideons.

I don't think you are quite right. If you will look at Ephesians 1:17-21, especially at verses 19-20, you will see that it takes the same Amighty power of God to raise a sinner from spiritual death as it took to raise the Lord Jesus Christ from physical death - in other words, a mighty miracle.

Amen! I don't disagree with any of that. No one suggests that people can be saved without faith (except perhaps in the case of imbeciles and those dying in infancy). The question is, where does that faith come from? Is it generated by those who are dead in trespasses and sins, or does it come from God?

You ask what good it would have done for Paul to be speaking to a bunch of corpses.
'The hand of the LORD came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed, they were very dry.
And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" You presumably would answer, no. But Ezekiel is wiser. So I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know"' (Ezekiel 37:1-3).

Strangely, I was preaching this Lord's day on the Dry Bones as part of a series on the Gospel in Ezekiel. But note that though it is Ezekiel who is to prophesy or preach the word of the Lord, it is God Himself who will
1. Cause breath (or spirit, Heb ruach) to enter into the bones.
2. Put sinews and flesh on them.
3. Cover them with skin.

Here is some typology for you! It is man who does the preaching, but it is God who makes alive so that the dry bones, those dead in trespasses and sins, may hear, 'and those who hear will live' (John 5:25).

Amen! Miraculous indeed! First God opened my eyes, and then I looked.

Here is my sermon on the Dry Bones, just in case you're interested.

And here's an appropriate hymn:

Lord, I was blind! I could not see
In Thy marred image any grace;
But now the beauty of Thy face
In radiant vision dawns on me.

Lord, I was deaf! I could not hear
The thrilling music of Thy voice;
But now I hear Thee and rejoice,
And all thine uttered words are dear.

Lord, I was dumb! I could not speak
The grace and glory of Thy name;
But now, as touched with living flame,
My lips Thine eager praises wake.

Lord, I was dead! I could not stir
My lifeless soul to come to Thee;
But now, since Thou hast quickened me,
I rise from death's dark sepulchre.

Lord, Thou hast made the blind to see,
The deaf to hear, the dumb to speak,
The dead to live; and lo! I break
The bonds of my captivity.' [William Tidd Matson, 1833-99]

 

Let's just pat ourselves on the back for the great choice we made.

God had no plan other than to toss his gift down on the street corner and it was up to us to walk to that street corner, do the research on the gift and then choose to take it for ourselves while others just walked on by or kicked the gift down the street. All hail our great and mighty capacity to choose! To our minds be all the glory and praise!

Miss E, your position absolutely robs God of the glory he deserves. It removes grace from the equation and it lifts you up as the great one who chose God. You turn a gift that had your name on it and was specially wrapped and chosen just for you and you make it a gift that was of such little value to God that he just tossed it down on the street corner and required you to go find it and choose to open it.

In your analogy, you are not given $100 as a gift. The $100 is tucked inside an old nike shoebox that is sitting on a corner with 500 other shoeboxes. You had to rummage around all those boxes and by your own wise choosing, you picked the shoebox with the $100 in it. I'm wise enough to realize that you glorify yourself and treat God with disrespect.

God chose you out of your filthy existence as a slave to sin. He ransomed you, specifically, and purchased your redemption with his blood. He saved you out of your bondage. ...and you think you chose God. How pathetic and self-glorifying your position is. When I recognized that I held that same thought as a free-will proponent, I repented of my pride and bowed my knee to the amazing grace of God in choosing to redeem me, a vile and worthless sinner. How I wish you could see the danger of your position.

 

HOW is it robbing God of the glory? HE GAVE THE GIFT. You don't give the person who receives the gift the glory, because the one who GIVES IT is the one that is due the glory! You have a screwed idea of what glory is my friend.

God OFFERING THAT GIFT OF SALVATION IS HIS GRACE. how am I robbing God of His great grace he gives to all? EVERY SINGLE PERSON HAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO RECEIVE SALVATION.

YOU make God out to be a God who FORCES who will choose Him or not. That is not love. Forcing someone to love you by choosing that person from the beginning, robbing them of their very will, is not a God of love. I refuse to believe God is a dictator as you believe he is, OR do I choose to believe that self-righteous thing you and others blind to this ideology want yourselves to receive which, in saying you were CHOSEN by GOD, is making YOU seem special when none of us are special by any means at all! NONE OF US DESERVES HEAVEN, NOBODY!. Why are you putting yourself on such a high pedestal to say you were BORN to receive grace by God with no conscious choice of your own?

Ridiculous!!

But if you have chosen to believe upon Jesus and make Him your Lord, you're still saved. But if you believe you were hand picked as a special star by God, your witness when you try and tell others about Jesus will make them hate you and God for giving God the choice to condemn or save. Men condemn themselves or choose to let God save them. That's it. Case in point.

 

My church endeavours to preach 'the whole counsel of God' (Acts of the Apostles 20:26-27). If your church is, in effect, preaching John 3:16 over and over again, it is not fulfilling its mandate.

With respect, it is. I only brought up Ezekiel 37 because you asked what good it would be for Paul to preach to people in their graves. People are spiritually dead until God uses the preaching of the Gospel to bring them to life. Please read 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:1-10 until you understand this. There is nothing in those passages about a cross or a dying savoir.

It is, of course, both those things.

But He is! He absolutely is! Nicodemus hasn't got a clue, That is why the Lord Jesus tells him, "Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus needed something that all his book-learning and religious background couldn't give him. And our Lord goes on the speak of the need to be born of 'water and the Spirit.' And if Nicodemus was such a great O.T. teacher he would have picked up the reference to Ezekiel 36:25-27.

There is nothing in all that to which a Calvinist would disagree. I don't know why you think there would be. But the typology in the passage is very challenging. Why a serpent? Where else in the Bible do you find a fiery or red serpent? Have a think about it. Also, you don't mention verse 13. Compare it with Proverbs 30:4. The Lord Jesus is preaching Himself to Nicodemus through the O.T. as the eternal, Divine Son of God. And that is another vital aspect of the Gospel. J.W.s believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, but they don't know who He is, and they don't understand the New Birth.

Your understanding of the New Birth is not wrong, but incomplete.

Salvation is so much greater, and more wonderful, than you understand. It is God saying, 'I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you' (Jeremiah 31:3).

 

Calvinists preach a God that forces people to love Him which is a FALSE GOSPEL and it HURTS the Truth when witnessing to unsaved folk by them essentially saying 'you are either chosen by God or you were not, your choice (AKA faith to believe) doesn't matter one quack'. You guys can word it and dress it up as deceitfully as you want but that above is in essence what ya'll believe and what ya'll preach. Which I think HURTS not only the Body of Believers but the unsaved who will see God as a God who picks based on whom He likes and not based on the Faith each person should ought to have in order to believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation.