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On Board With Billy Graham

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by rockytopva, Apr 9, 2018.

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  1. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    How long did you stay on board with Billy Graham? I can remember my great grandmother supporting his ministry. It was also nice to visit old folks and find them tuned into the broadcast. In the 1970's I use to feel a great deal of conviction behind his message. It was also nice to hear a salvation message that would be broadcasted to shut-ins and hospitals.

    I stayed on board until about the 1990s. If I remember right a gospel rock band played at one of the crusades. Not only that, but I was increasingly concerned about the ministry following the trends of what I thought was the Laodicean church age.
     
  2. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Had nothing against him, however, I was not crazy about the transactional-style gospel message he presented, where one asks Jesus to be one's "Savior."

    "When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die.” - Bonhoeffer
     
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  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    We won't be the ones that judge Billy Graham. It made my heart happy to revisit a lot of those clips the media showed of him from the old days. Growing up there was NEVER a TV crusade that our family didn't watch. Especially with Mom, Mamaw, and Granny, they adored him.
     
    #3 kyredneck, Apr 9, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
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  4. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    I lost both my mother and grandmother in the last 15 years. Our hospital's only religious option was David Cerullo's INSP network. Of the whole time those two were in the hospital the only message I heard was on, "my time of increase." I heard the word "increase" so many times that I thought I would spew the word out of my mouth if I heard it any more! Of the whole time I was there I never once heard the invitation for salvation. I would have welcomed a Billy Graham broadcast back in those days.
     
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  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I have never actually heard the first Graham message. I recently told my Dad (who was a Graham fan) that I think that is because I'd rather just consider what was accomplished, rather than listening to the messages, because I am pretty critical. So basically I don't want to spoil it, lol.

    One thing I can say is he definitely got the attention of many people.


    God bless.
     
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    We do see Christ present an "invitation" from the sinner here:


    Revelation 3:20
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.



    In view is, I believe, not so much the sinner seeking out Christ, but, rather in view is the concept of not rejecting Christ's efforts to save. I would have to see it in his message that he was actually denying that salvation is accomplished by the efforts of God, but I do know what you mean.

    I will say that I have seen numerous people opposed to the concept of asking Christ into our hearts, which in my view is a Biblical position because that is precisely what happens when we are saved, we are indwelt by God.


    God bless.
     
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  7. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Jesus is speaking to His church here.



    Jesus calls us to discipleship, not to passivity. Asking "Jesus into our hearts" is better than nothing, but it is a poor way of presenting the gospel. I would rather go with a biblical example, such as "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand", "Follow Me", or "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me", which all paint essentially the same picture.
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Hmm, so the Church has closed the door on Jesus Christ? They do not sup with Him?

    You might want to rethink that. The Lord calls those in these churches (to be distinguished from the Church, the Body of Christ) to overcome. It is a euphemism for conversion.

    In view is the indwelling of Christ in salvation.


    So you teach men that they must get busy. That's not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


    These are not the Gospel either.

    The Gospel is essentially that Jesus Christ died on the Cross for the sins of men, and that He arose again that we might be justified freely by the grace of God through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

    Start giving them the Gospel, my friend, and you will see repentance.


    God bless.
     
  9. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    It was written specifically to the church at Laodicea.

    It is a call to come back to fellowship with God.

    That's reading more into it than was intended.

    No, that men and women, boys and girls should become disciples of Jesus. Being a disciple of Jesus is a lifetime vocation.

    No, Jesus preached EXACTLY those things. IT IS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS. Are you so unfamiliar with the gospels that you don't recognize those statements from Jesus?

    The teaching you describe here is the atonement. It is part of the gospel story, but it is not the gospel.

    I give them the gospel that Jesus preached, not your truncated abbreviation of it that leaves out discipleship.

    I see plenty of repentance. I also see lives transformed in discipleship and empowered by the Spirit.
     
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    This is true, however, the call is to overcome, and I think we can understand a harmony in John's understanding of what overcoming is:


    1 John 5:1-5
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

    5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?



    That is why, if one overcome...they will never be blotted out of the Book of Life.


    It's a call to a physical congregation to be saved.


    Revelation 3:20
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.



    You don't think Christ is speaking about coming to dinner, do you?


    Not at all. It's simply balancing certain irrefutable truths to come to a conclusion that is in harmony with what Scripture teaches elsewhere.


    Continued...
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    This is true, but if you teach "You are saved by becoming a disciple and doing stuff," then you negate the Gift of God.

    You deny that Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith.


    And Jesus did not preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ during His Ministry, that too is an irrefutable fact:


    Romans 16:25-26
    King James Version (KJV)

    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:



    Are you so unfamiliar with the Gospels that you do not understand that not one of the disciples was believing on Christ as the Risen Savior? Or so unfamiliar with Acts that you do not understand that the disciples were not Baptized with the Holy Ghost (which Peter defines as the moment of salvation in Acts 11) until Pentecost?


    The Gospel is the Atonement. When Paul preached the Gospel of Christ he preached Christ crucified.

    The Gospel is about what Christ did, not about what men need to do.


    It's a false argument, I have never denied that believers are disciples of Christ.

    I simply don't teach men they are saved because they are a disciple, but saved because Christ died for them.


    And I am sure you do, I don't doubt that for a moment.

    Just pointing out a few simple truths.


    God bless.
     
  12. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    It is about fellowship and intimacy, which often takes place in the context of meals. Today, as a formal expression of worship, we partake in the breaking of bread and sharing of wine. In the post-resurrection appearances of Jesus, a surprising number of them took place in the presence of food:

    Mark 16:11 - Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table...

    Luke 24:30-31 - When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight.

    Luke 24:41-43 - While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.

    John 21:9-15a - So when they got out on the land, they saw a charcoal fire already laid and fish placed on it, and bread. Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish which you have now caught.” Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn. Jesus said to them, “Come and have breakfast.” None of the disciples ventured to question Him, “Who are You?” knowing that it was the Lord. Jesus came and took the bread and gave it to them, and the fish likewise. This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after He was raised from the dead. So when they had finished breakfast...
     
  13. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    If I am guilty of that, then Jesus is guilty of it.

    You have confused effort with earning. We are not in a position to earn anything. To have such an attitude does not let us receive grace. However, we are to expend effort to do the things that Jesus called us to do. Not to do them is disobedience.

    Nope. Cooperating with Jesus to do what He called us to do denies nothing.

    So Jesus didn't preach Jesus' message? Your claim is not only a refutable fact, but it is a horrible distortion of the gospel.

    The core of the message of Jesus is, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand." And it was and still is.

    Paul was a disciple of Jesus and taught His message. One understands Paul's teaching by knowing what Jesus said. Paul was not the one who revealed the gospel of Jesus. It had been made plain by Jesus and His earliest disciples. It was not something Paul and the disciples uniquely revealed to the world, but it was first revealed in its fulness by Jesus.

    It was hard to believe on Christ as the risen Savior before the resurrection, but that does not mean that they did not already have a saving faith - just like Abraham. Did the thief on the cross have faith in Jesus as the risen Savior? Of course not, but he developed a saving faith in his last moments.

    Your interpretation of Peter's statement is quite faulty. Peter was pointing out that receiving the Holy Spirit is evidence of faith for those Gentiles, but saving faith existed before that event for those who were already disciples of Jesus. (Again, Abraham had saving faith before the Law and well before Jesus.) Peter was using the evidence that the Gentiles received the Spirit with the manifestation of tongues as evidence that the gospel was also for the Gentiles.

    Nope. The atonement is part of the gospel, but the gospel is about the kingdom (the interactive present rule and authority) of God. The atonement is a one-time event, but the kingdom is a present reality.

    As part of the larger gospel message.

    The gospel is about who Christ is, what Christ has done, the present reality and authority of Christ, and the future promise to set the world right. We fit in to every part of that message.

    The passive message that you advocate, where you claim that the call to discipleship is 'negating the gift of God' and 'denying that Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith' does not naturally lead to obedience. That runs completely counter to the message of Jesus. But of course, you claim that Jesus did not preach the gospel, so I guess that's consistent.

    Perhaps you are a disciple of Paul?

    People are saved when they enter into the life of Christ, in every sense of the word. When they give all they know themselves to be, to all they know Christ to be. That is not a decision merely in the intellect, but an action of the soul.

    Not quite. We were reconciled to God through His death, but we are saved by His life (see Romans 5:10).

    We are called to enter into the life of Christ ("Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand", "Follow Me", "Take us your cross daily and follow Me", etc.).
     
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    While I can understand taking a view like that, it still remains that Christ wasn't coming to dinner with those in these churches who embraced the warnings and overcame.

    To Ephesus is the warning of the church being removed (their candlestick removed).

    Secondly...

    Revelation 2
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


    The ones overcoming are not those who are saved and will eat of the tree of life in the Eternal State.

    Look at the invitation here:


    Revelation 22:13-17
    King James Version (KJV)

    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.



    In view is an invitation to salvation. Those in the churches are not all saved, and it is to them these warnings go out to.


    God bless
     
  15. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    He is calling the church back to fellowship with Him.

    Yes. Did you notice that those "that do his commandments", those who "overcome", and those who "take the water of life" get to eat from the "tree of life" and drink of the "water of life"?

    There is discipleship (effort) involved, but they are not earning it. They get it "freely."
     
  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Always on board with Graham no reason to leave. His gospel message was the exact same in the end as it was in the beginning.
     
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And that is not the point. I am not denying that we become disciples when we are saved, again, I am denying that we are saved by becoming disciples.


    I'm going to post your last comment in this response because it sums up your gospel:

    And there it is, the diminishing of the Cross and Christ.

    Not quite? I know what you add to the Cross...doing stuff:

    Christ ministered under the Law to Israel, not the world:


    Matthew 15:24
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



    Furthermore, He ministered within the framework of the revelation provided to men at that time.

    When I say He "didn't preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ" that does not mean I ignore that on a few occasions He did...


    Matthew 16:20-23
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

    21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

    22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

    23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.



    ...but...

    ...Peter rejected the Gospel.

    And if you don't believe me that the disciples were not believing on Christ yet, then take the Lord's Word for it:


    Mark 16:9-14
    King James Version (KJV)

    9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

    10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

    11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

    12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

    13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

    14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.



    I would suggest to you that you have left your first love, my friend. Return to that time when you embraced Christ and remember how you were saved.


    Continued...
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    It denies the intervention of Sovereign God in the lives of natural men.

    Understand, no man's will, either personally or imposed on another can bring about salvation:


    John 1:11-13
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


    Here is Paul's definition of the Gospel:


    1 Corinthians 15
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:



    That doesn't sound like "...do stuff so you can be saved" to me. Sounds like the Gospel delivered by Paul was that Christ died for our sins, and rose again the third day. That's the Good News, not, "Be saved so you can be busy for the Lord.

    And again, as ignored in your response, The Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery not revealed since the world began:


    No, He did not reveal the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Again, He ministered within the Law, within that Age, and within the revelation afforded men at that time.

    Are you ignoring the statement above? You did in your first response, will you do so again?


    Continued...
     
  19. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    So refute it.

    So far you have not really addressed any points raised.

    Here is another statement that makes it clear the Gospel was not revealed during Christ's Ministry:


    1 Corinthians 2
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

    2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

    3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

    4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

    5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

    6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

    7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

    8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.



    The hidden wisdom in view is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    You can pick up the context in Chapter One:


    1 Corinthians 1:22-24
    King James Version (KJV)

    22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

    23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

    24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.



    Paul has this to say as well:


    Romans 1:16
    King James Version (KJV)

    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.



    Nothing at all about the believer, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is called the Gospel of Jesus Christ because it is about Him.


    Continued...
     
  20. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Except that you reject what Jesus said about that. I think God is quite gracious and accepts us on the basis of what we know, but Jesus explicitly taught discipleship as a part of entering into His life.

    And there it is, the diminishing of the Cross and Christ.[/quote]

    You diminish the cross and Christ by your actions here.

    I didn't realize that you were going to resort to dishonest citations.

    Here's the real context:

    You said claimed that we were saved by the death of Christ by writing this, "...but saved because Christ died for them."

    I responded, "Not quite."

    You pretend that's all I write. But I continued the thought:

    "Not quite. We were reconciled to God through His death, but we are saved by His life (see Romans 5:10)."

    Since you obviously didn't look it up or know the reference, here is Romans 5:10:

    For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

    I was paraphrasing Paul's writing and even gave you the scripture for reference, but you have instead decided to twist what I have written for rhetorical advantage. Anyone who cares can see the original here.

    I am trying to be faithful to the words of Jesus. What about you?

    I understand that you subscribe to dispensationalism. I do not. I can read the scriptures easily without placing an unbiblical theory upon them.

    Obviously. But Jesus also provided an enormous amount of new revelation. His announcement that the "Kingdom of God is at hand" was an announcement of the present availability of the kingdom to anyone who would enter it.

    That's good.

    Obviously not.

    Peter objected to the idea that Jesus would be allowed to be killed. However, Peter did not turn away from Jesus, but learned from Him - the one preaching the gospel message. Rejecting the gospel would be leaving Jesus and not returning.



    You have confused their unbelief of the testimony of the women to disbelief in the gospel.


    I suggest to take some serious time to set aside all of your presuppositions and reread the gospels carefully in light of what Jesus actually said. And pick a modern translation so you can understand it better. It's clear you don't understand the KJV, because no one should make the errors you are making.

    I came to faith when I first heard the real gospel, not a passive atonement story about going to heaven when I die, but the gospel of Jesus calling me into a life. That was in June 1979. I remember all of the circumstances and the scripture that pricked my heart.
     
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