The above quotes from Chafer and Ryrie say nothing about "after the millennium". You are reading something that is not there to justify your opinion.
In fact Chafer says "throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes"]/b]. That indicates that throughout eternity there will be an earthly Jewish people and a heavenly Christian people. In fact if some of the Old Testament promises are applied strictly and literally to Israel that means an eternal earthly kingdom for Israel.
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On request, Different Gospels -#2.
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ituttut, Jun 27, 2009.
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Can you present any Scripture to justify the above statements?
Paul's parable of the olive tree shows that there is only one people of God, those justified by faith in both the Old and New Testaments. Those people constitute the Church for whom Jesus Christ died:
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Can you point to one verse of Scripture that states that Jesus Christ died to purchase unbelieving Israel. -
Please check into this further, in your Bible, and you will find later there are two (2) foundations laid by man on the Foundation of Jesus Christ. Peter laid a foundation on it and it is called The Kingdom Church.
Paul also laid a foundation of the foundation of Jesus Christ. Paul said he would not build on another man's (Peter) foundation. The foundation that Paul laid down is called The Body of Christ Church.
I find help in understanding sorrow in I Thessalonians 4:13, "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." I have to wonder when at funerals I see afterwards any that continue in their sorrow, for they have No Hope. It doesn't mean the one that died is not justified, but the person themselves who sorrow will continue to wailer in their sins. This is not sorrow to godly repentance we find in Metanoeo repentance for this is a changing of our mental position. We turn our backs to Satan, to face the Light, our Lord Jesus Christ.
I wish you would quit slandering me, with your misunderstandings. -
2. What Scripture talks about The Apostolic Pentecostal church in Jerusalem? I would like to read it. What was the Church at Damascus called? The Apostolic Pentecostal church in Damascus?.
3. Where in Scripture does it talk about two [2] different foundations laid by man on the Foundation of Jesus Christ?
4. Where in Scripture is the name Kingdom Church used? Just what is a Kingdom Church?
5. Where in Scripture is the name Body of Christ Church used?
In the following Scripture Paul states:
Romans 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:
There is no indication at all that Paul was speaking of Peter in this Scripture. If he were and if Peter were preaching a Gospel different than that of Paul was Paul not obligated to take Peter to task as he had earlier. Ituttut you are totally misusing this passage of Scripture in an attempt to prove something that is untrue; namely that Paul preached a Gospel other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the same Gospel that Peter preached. The same Gospel that all the Apostles preached [except Judas].
You obviously have a vivid though distorted imagination Ituttut. As a consequence your beliefs are heretical Ituttut and bring reproach on the name of Jesus Christ. -
Just answer the question ituttut: What does Paul mean when he writes the following?
2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.[/quote] -
The above is worse than no answer. I made the simple statement that: Everyone who has every been saved has been saved through the Grace of my Lord Jesus Christ and you respond as above. Are you denying that truth or not? It is not clear from what you say above, particularly regarding Moses and David. Please tell me how they were saved, by Grace or otherwise.
As for what they knew listen to what the Apostle Paul tells us:
Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Now what Gospel was preached to Abraham? -
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The OT saints were saved by trusting in Christ. No, they did not know his specific name, or many of the details, but they looked for the promised saviour. And the Bible says this.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
And here are some that looked for this saviour.
John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
This woman could hardly be called a saint, she had been married many times and was living with a man outside marriage. But she believed the OT scriptures and looked for and trusted in the promised Messiah.
And, as the story goes she ran into town and told everyone she had found the Christ. And when these who also truly believed the OT scriptures met and heard Jesus, they believed as well.
John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
You see, those who believed the OT scriptures and understood them (you must believe the scriptures to understand them), looked for the Christ, the Saviour. They understood they were not going to be saved by works.
It is only false dispensational teaching that confuses you. Believe the scriptures, not theories of man. -
Part 1 (Wife calls at this moment
There is only one entrance into Christ's Church, and that by the Grace of God, through faith, and not anything we do. It is the gift of God, without any work of man. This is not flexibility, but what God tells us today. I find in His Word we either stand on the foundation the gospel of Christ Jesus as given to the Apostle Paul, to the GENTILE; or on the foundation that Jesus gave to Peter, that gospel being to Israel, those of the circumcised gospel.
Have you noticed the denominations tend to straddle, with one foot on the foundation laid by Peter, and the other foot on the foundation laid by Paul? They both are laid on the foundation of Jesus Christ. I try to keep both feet on the gospel of Paul in order to not go through the 'Tribulation.
37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." -
Part 2
4. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."
If you are honest you have to answer Yes they had all been baptized, for those that believed John the Baptist, and Jesus, would do what they are told. Why do think they were together in this place? They were told to be there.
I know for a fact all there were baptized according to the command of John the Baptist, and NOW you known, i.e. if you believe His Word.
Before leaving though you completely ignore Acts 2:37-38, " -
Ituttut: You have yet to answer these simple questions!
Questions previously posed to Ituttut by OldRegular
1. Paul was headed to Damascus to persecute Christians so there was obviously a Church there.
2. What Scripture talks about The Apostolic Pentecostal church in Jerusalem? I would like to read it. What was the Church at Damascus called? The Apostolic Pentecostal church in Damascus?.
3. Where in Scripture does it talk about two [2] different foundations laid by man on the Foundation of Jesus Christ?
4. Where in Scripture is the name Kingdom Church used? Just what is a Kingdom Church?
5. Where in Scripture is the name Body of Christ Church used?
In the following Scripture Paul states:
Romans 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:
There is no indication at all that Paul was speaking of Peter in this Scripture. If he were and if Peter were preaching a Gospel different than that of Paul was Paul not obligated to take Peter to task as he had earlier? Ituttut you are totally misusing this passage of Scripture in an attempt to prove something that is untrue; namely that Paul preached a Gospel other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the same Gospel that Peter preached. The same Gospel that all the Apostles preached [except Judas].
You obviously have a vivid though distorted imagination Ituttut. As a consequence your beliefs are heretical Ituttut and bring reproach on the name of Jesus Christ.Click to expand... -
Ituttut: You have not yet responded to the following comment!
Question for Ituttut
Just answer the question ituttut: What does Paul mean when he writes the following?
2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.Click to expand... -
Allan said: ↑Yes, no problem here.
But what do that state is the dispensational belief 'after the mil-reign'. What you quote refers to what God has done is and is going to be doing up till that point. You never go further, why??? Because we hold they will all become one body, one group, one church - AFTER the Mil-reign.Click to expand... -
Have to cut-off. Going out of town
OldRegular;1429404 answering ituttut said:1. Paul was headed to Damascus to persecute Christians so there was obviously a Church there.Click to expand...
Yes there were synagogues there, just as in Judah. They were there because of Saul's persecution of the Pentecostal church in Jerusalem. Saul had just about run out of souls to persecute in Judah, so he was now going after those that he had scattered into Gentile territory. People just do not realize what a terror Saul was, for he was going after everyone that defamed His God (in his misunderstanding). How had those of the gospel John the Baptist blasphemed His God? They believed a man that said He was the same as God. Paul was an ardent Pharisee, high on the totem pole of this sect, believing anyone that could do the miracles that Jesus did must be of Satan.2. What Scripture talks about The Apostolic Pentecostal church in Jerusalem? I would like to read it. What was the Church at Damascus called? The Apostolic Pentecostal church in Damascus?Click to expand...
If you have noticed that gospel was rejected, so that commission could not be carried out. The Apostles never got out of Jerusalem until sometime after his own people, with Saul's approval, killed Stephen.
The Church at Damascus was called a branch of the Apostolic Pentecostal church, Mission churches if you will. What would you call them?3. Where in Scripture does it talk about two [2] different foundations laid by man on the Foundation of Jesus Christ?
Are you sure you have a Bible that includes the book of Acts, and the Epistles of Paul? I'll let scripture speak for itself.
Romans 15:20, "Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:"
I Corinthians 3:9-11, "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."
Ephesians 2:20-22, "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."
Acts 28:28, "Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it."4. Where in Scripture is the name Kingdom Church used? Just what is a Kingdom Church?Click to expand...
Acts 3:18-20, "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:"
Couple this with Acts 2:37-28.5. Where in Scripture is the name Body of Christ Church used?Click to expand...In the following Scripture Paul states:
Romans 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:
There is no indication at all that Paul was speaking of Peter in this Scripture. If he were and if Peter were preaching a Gospel different than that of Paul was Paul not obligated to take Peter to task as he had earlier. Ituttut you are totally misusing this passage of Scripture in an attempt to prove something that is untrue; namely that Paul preached a Gospel other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the same Gospel that Peter preached. The same Gospel that all the Apostles preached [except Judas].Click to expand...You obviously have a vivid though distorted imagination Ituttut. As a consequence your beliefs are heretical Ituttut and bring reproach on the name of Jesus Christ.Click to expand...Click to expand... -
ituttut said: ↑Show me in scripture where Paul ever preached to a Gentile to repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins.Click to expand...
The church at Corinth is obviously a Church composed primarily of Gentiles. There may have been some ethnic Jews there I don't know, neither do you. The Apostle Paul writes to this Church:
2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
So you see Ituttut, contrary to your argument the Apostle Paul does speak of repentance to the Gentiles.
ituttut said: ↑I note your insistence to be numbered with all those that believe you must repent and be baptized by the hands of man to gain repentance of your sins.Click to expand...
That being said repentance is a part of salvation, just as regeneration, forgiveness, faith, justification, sanctification, and eventually glorification! -
ituttut said: ↑There were no Christians in Damascus at time.Click to expand...
Acts 9:1, 2
1. And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2. And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
"Disciples of the Lord" and "any of this way" indicates Christians and where there are Christians there is a Church, that is "called out ones". Or you can find Scripture referring to the Church as the Body of Christ, or the Bride of Christ, or the Bride of the Lamb.
So Cheers to you Ituttut as Jim1999 would say. -
Ituttut said:
Show me in scripture where Paul ever preached to a Gentile to repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins.Click to expand...
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Here Peter never mentions baptism, only that they repent and be converted that their sins may be blotted out.
And I know that dispensationalists believe that Peter preached the re-establisment of the kingdom. But if you read closely you will see that Jesus will not return until at least two times have passed.
Now, I have never understood how dispensationalists who put such emphasis on divisions of times or ages can overlook this, but they do. The scripture says the heaven must receive Jesus until the TIMES of restitution of all things. So there is no way Jesus is going to return immediately.
And if you read Acts 1 you will see Jesus said the same thing.
Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
I don't know how dispensationalist overlook this either (actually I do, because it is completely contrary to their false teaching).
It doesn't get any clearer than this. The apostles asked Jesus directly if he would restore the kingdom at this time.
Jesus told them this information is not for them to know. So, there is no way Peter is going to tell the Jews Jesus would return immediately, because Peter does not know this.
But notice Jesus also mentions TIMES (plural) and SEASONS (plural).
So, at least two times or seasons must pass before Jesus returns whether the Jews repent and get baptized, or whatever they do.
So, this teaching that Jesus would return immediately if the Jews would repent and be baptized is absolutely false and contradicted by direct scripture.
Their job was to be witnesses (preach the Gospel), starting at Jerusalem, all Judaea, Samaria, and then to the uttermost part of the earth. Now, if this was a different gospel, why would it be preached to the uttermost part of the earth? Answer- it wouldn't. It would have been preached to the Jews only. So, this also proves that there is one gospel that was preached both to the Jews and Gentiles.
It is only because you have listened to the false teachings of hyperdispensationalism that you cannot see this. Believe the scriptures and reject the false teachings of man. -
And Jesus himself preached to the Jews that they could receive the Holy Spirit and never mentioned baptism.
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Who is Jesus speaking to here? Jews only.
What must they do to receive the Spirit, the Holy Ghost? Believe on Him.
Does Jesus mention baptism? No
Does Jesus mention the restoration of the kingdom? No.
So, if it was necessay that the Jews be baptized to receive the Holy Spirit, then Jesus left out a very important detail, didn't he? Of course, if the Jews only need believe on Jesus without baptism to receive the Holy Spirit, then Jesus did not leave out anything, did he?
And Peter confirms this later in Acts if you read carefully.
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Read that carefully. Does Peter say the Jews received the Holy Spirit upon being baptized? No, he says that they received the Holy Spirit by hearing God's Word (as I began to speak). And in verse 17 he confirms they received the gift by believeing (who believed).
So, this is in perfect agreement with John 7:38 where Jesus said those who believed on him would receive the Holy Spirit.
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