Subscribing to the doctrine of Calvinism does not guarantee election. I am confused as to why this is such a big deal.
Onetime TGC Calvinist Fraternity Insider Is 'Not a Christian'
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Jerome, Jul 26, 2019.
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Not sure the value of some simplistic scheme of two classes of 'people you've seen' to this, but Harris's trajectory would fit more with your #2 (except for the 'I've never heard of any of those falling away' thing)
Harris was raised Holy Rollers, then was in a 'Willow Creek'-type environment, then became Calvinist through the teaching ministry of John Piper. -
From what you're describing, I'd say, "no". -
Sigh. You previously spoke of 'reading of scripture or the preaching of the word.'
Again, not sure why people have be jammed into these two classes of 'people you've seen', nor why you would declare Harris a clear-cut case when you apparently know so little about about him. -
There's something here I find sadly strange. This dear man (the subject of this OP) has lost his way. He was or claimed to be a Calvinist. He claimed at one time to be a Christian. And no offense but it seems the Non-Calvinists on here are in a better position to restore the dear soul than are the Calvinist.
Consider if he has an spark of interest to repent he actually now has to battle through all the doubts that he was in the elect to begin with. Indeed if he ever checked out what the Christian community are saying as in even visiting this web site he's got people of his former ilk (Calvinists) publicly making declarations that he couldn't have been saved to begin with....he couldn't have been the elect some of you have said. How does this not demonstrate the dangers of Calvinistic thinking?
You have a man now who doubly would feel God won't receive him back or that he ever did have him in the number of the redeemed. Well if there's one chance in a million that the poor soul could ever read this forget the Calvinist paradigm and KNOW God will receive you back. To those who fall away he'll restore. If you allow yourself to become such there's no reason for you to doubt the door to the Father's house would be locked to you if you did. His precious blood WILL cleanse you of all your sin! -
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Sadly, it looks to be the latter.
This isn't something I take lightly, but when someone falls away, it reminds me of how very sobering the parables of the tares and the sower are. -
To me, Joshua Harris hasn't "lost his way"...
Christ's sheep follow Him, unerringly.
They do not fall away and recant their faith under trials of faith.
Only false believers do that...people who were never born again.:(
"Tares" can be of any stripe...which is why this is so sobering.
He's denied Christ ( from what I can tell ) and by all accounts, seems to have walked away... which means he fits the parable of the sower.
Restoring someone in the Bible is with regard to sin, not denying their Saviour ( see Galatians 6:1 ).
If Mr. Harris doesn't return on his own, then it's because Christ never knew him.
The only danger is in thinking that man has any influence on who God saves.
That would mean he is my brother.
If he is Christ's, then he will weather this trial and return to his Saviour.
If not, then he never was.
It really is that "cut and dried".
This isn't a game, Rockson.
Do you somehow think that I am treating this situation callously, or uncaringly?
I don't and I'm not.
I know how salvation works, and it's all up to God.
If God saved Mr. Harris, then he will evidence that miraculous change of heart by waking up and repenting.
But there are trials and tribulations, and they are very real...they are also there to test God's children and those who profess to be God's children. -
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I also ( nowadays ) pay very little attention to "popular Christianity", so didn't ( and don't ) care about "Calvinistic circles".
I don't get involved in either side with regard to reading and listening to them, Rockson.
I stand back and watch what both "sides" are doing, knowing that most of it is simply "religion at its finest".
I realize that seems harsh, but the reality of it is, many people who think they are saved, aren't.:Sick
It doesn't matter if they are in "Calvinist", "Wesleyan Arminian" or "Traditionalist" churches, there is no guarantee that a person is saved, just because they believe all the right doctrine.
That is the only thing that matters with regard to salvation...was he truly born again, or not?
To me, it doesn't look like he's staying in the faith.
There's only one conclusion when someone recants and goes back to the world...they were never born again.
They "got religion", and that's all they had.
When the going gets tough, false believers fall away and true ones seek their Saviour and hold on, no matter how bad the "storm" gets.
I'm saying that he probably wasn't saved...period.
I hope I'm wrong.
"Calvinism" aside, he now has done an "about-face", or at least he appears to have.
Christians don't do that. -
I happen to believe that the truth of salvation is what you call "Calvinism"...
I call it the "doctrines of grace" and I agree with "TULIP".
I also happen to believe that all of God's true children will eventually see the truth of election.
Lastly, they will never fall away from the faith, no matter how bad the trials get.
They will never go back to the world and its ways.
Christ is far too precious to them for that to happen.:Notworthy -
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I "jam them" into where God's word "jams them"...
Children of God, or children of the devil ( 1 John 3:10 ).
"Wheat" or "tares" ( Matthew 13:18-23 ).
"Sheep" or "goats" ( Matthew 25:31-46 ).
There are only two sides.
One is either for God, or against Him ( Matthew 12:30, Mark 9:40, Luke 9:50, Luke 11:23 ).
There is no middle ground. -
1) "Calvinism" ( "TULIP" ) is the truth of man's condition before God and how salvation works.
2) There are two types of "Christian"...
Those Christ never knew ( Matthew 7:21-23 ) and those He did ( Romans 8:29-30 ).
The first type will never be led into all truth ( John 16:13 ) and will never truly believe on Him and His finished work on the cross for them.
The second will.
The first type of "Christian" is a religious person whose heart has never been changed by God.
But they can and often do come out the gate looking and acting like true believers.
The second has a genuine heart-to-heart relationship with Jesus Christ, and they may fall, but they always get back up ( Proverbs 24:16 ).:)
At this point it may be too soon to tell... but to me, Mr. Harris fits the first.
If or when he comes to his senses, then I will re-evaluate my opinion of the matter. -
InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
According to Calvinism you are either Elect or you are Not Elect.
Elect or non-Elect from before the foundation of the world.
It really is that "cut and dried."
Nothing Mr. Harris does or doesn't do can change that.
Or so I've been told umpteen thousand times by Calvinists.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL -
Elect = saved.
"Non-elect" = lost.
Nothing any of us can do will ever influence God to have mercy and compassion upon any one of us.
He is not a respecter of persons.
Either way, Mr. Harris will do one of two things...
If he is one of Christ's sheep who cannot fall away, then he will return.
If he isn't, then he will prove it by continuing in his present state. -
InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
"If Mr. Harris doesn't return on his own, then it's because Christ never knew him."
So it seems that Mr. Harris left Calvinism on his own and he will return on his own. That sure sounds like "free will" to me. -
If Mr Harris is one of "those who are called according to GOD's purpose" [Romans 8:28-30], then Mr Harris will return to God because Jesus' "sheep hear HIS voice, and HE knows them, and they follow HIM; and HE gives eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of HIS hand." [John 10:27-28]
If Mr Harris is not one of "those who are called according to GOD's purpose", then Mr Harris will not return to God because he "went out from us, but he was not really of us; for if he had been of us, he would have remained with us; but he went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." [1 John 2:19]
The eternal destiny of Mr Harris rests where it has always rested ... in the sovereign hands of God. -
InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
1. Let's suppose he is Elect. He professed faith in Christ, he became a respected, knowledgeable voice for Calvinism, authored some books, preached a lot, spoke at a bunch of conferences, etc. Now he says, "no, no, no, I repudiate my beliefs in God. Everything I preached and taught about is false. In fact, I'm going to become a crusader for gay rights." Tomorrow he gets hit by a bus and he dies.
Where does Mr. Harris spend eternity?
2. Let's suppose Mr. Harris is Elect. He professed faith in Christ, he became a respected, knowledgeable voice for Calvinism, authored some books, preached a lot, spoke at a bunch of conferences, etc. Now he says, "no, no, no, I repudiate my beliefs in God. Everything I preached and taught about is false. In fact, I'm going to become a crusader for gay rights." He quietly fades away, lives until he's in his late 80's, never repents and never comes back to Christ. He dies at age 89.
Where does Mr. Harris spend eternity? -
"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep." [John 10:26]
Q. ... but what if someone that was not one of his sheep believed?
- A.: It can't happen. The reason they do not believe is BECAUSE they are not one of His sheep.
Q. ... but what if one of his sheep did not hear Jesus?
- A.: Then Jesus lied and we are all still dead in our sins.
- A.: Then Jesus lied, God is not omniscient and we are all still dead in our sins.
- A.: Then Jesus lied and we are all still dead in our sins.
"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." [John 10:28]
Q. ... but what if someone that was not one of his sheep and given eternal life later perishes because they were snatched out of His hand?
- A.: Which part of "ETERNAL" is temporary? Which part of "NO ONE" really means someone?
To answer directly, failure to persevere indicates that Mr Harris was not one of the elect. I quoted from the place where John offered the exact same message ..."They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." [1 John 2:19]
Don't you accept John's answer to your "what if" questions? (Calvinists do.)
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