My goodness... Don't you ever talk about anything else besides the CAL vs. Armin debate? I created threads on Bibliology, and Philosophy of late and you have not joined in. I am eager to hear your views.
OT refutation of Augustinianism
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by webdog, May 20, 2014.
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evangelist6589 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Brother Wes, you've made my point for me and didn't realize it. Adam sinned, and God drove him out of Eden. Adam messed it up for all of us. Adam broke communion with God. If Adam hadn't sinned, we'd be there to this day, imo. Jesus Christ redeemed us, His bride, and put us back in the fellowship with God that Adam had pre-fall.
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Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
This verse alone clearly refutes Original Sin, God said that the son shall not bear the iniquity or sin of his father, and neither shall the father bear the iniquity or sin of his son. Every man spiritually dies for his own sin.
And this passage is clearly speaking of eternal death, not temporal, as I showed before.
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
This passage is not speaking of civil law as some here falsely claim, it is speaking of dying lost "in sin". This verse clearly says the man that turns from righteousness and sins, that "in his trespass", "in his sin", "in them" shall he die.
The Jews were very aware that God forbid one man dying for another's crimes or sins.
2 Kin 14:6 But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
To believe that all men were blamed for Adam's sin in the garden and were caused to spiritually die is to believe that God himself is a hypocrite who breaks his own laws. Absurd!
Physical death could actually be seen as a blessing, it is the fear of death that is man's greatest incentive to repent of sin and trust Christ. If man could live forever as a sinner, few men would ever repent.
And scripture does show that God takes our physical weaknesses into consideration when we do wrong.
Psa 103:13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.
God is compassionate, he remembers that we are made of dust and very fallible, and thank God for that! -
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
We are not going to stand in front of God and worry about what our fathers have done, we have to give account only for ourselves.
Ecc 11:9 Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.
It is our choices we are going to be judged for, not our father's or Adam's choices.
Gal 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
The scriptures are clear, God judges every man for his own works, not those of another.
So there is an abundance of scripture that clearly refutes Original Sin. Augustine simply did not know or understand scripture very well at all. -
Every Calvinist believes that we shall all give account of ourselves before God. All of these Scriptures are moot--way off topic. They don't disprove anything, just like Psalm 139 doesn't prove anything which you finally had to admit. Praise to God has nothing to do with one's sin nature. Giving account before God, or the Judgment Seat of God has nothing to do with one's sin nature. Why do you confuse different doctrines? -
There is not one word of scripture that supports we are born with a sin nature. That is what you tried to prove with Psa 51:5, but it teaches no such thing. It is speaking about David being conceived "in sin" by his mother.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Does this verse say all men inherit a sin nature from Adam. NOPE. -
And you didn't start this thread, Webdog did.
Go start another thread where all you do is talk about yourself. -
"We shall all give account of ourselves before God."
This refers to the "Judgment Seat of Christ."
First, there is no sin in heaven.
Second, now we wait for the redemption of our bodies, and at the second coming of Christ we will receive those glorified bodies at which time that sin nature will be entirely eradicated.
Third, we are not even judged for sin; we are rewarded, every man according to his works. It is not a judgment of sin.
Thus your "proof text" is silly beyond degree. It doesn't refute a thing.
There are hundreds of Scriptures (not just Psalm 51:5) that teach the depravity of man. And you cannot refute them all no matter how hard you try. -
I (and others) have presented many scriptures that clearly argue against being born sinful and separated from God. The common objections are, "That verse doesn't mean what it says", or "You know what scripture says, but not what it means". So even people that object to my view agree that I believe what the scriptures SAY.
If the scriptures don't mean what they say then they are meaningless, and you might as well throw the book in the trash, as no one could possibly know what it means.
1 Jhn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
You and others do not seem to realize that you have actually redefined what sin is. Sin is something you DO, it is something you COMMIT. You cannot be born sinful, you must actually COMMIT sin, or TRANSGRESS the law to be a sinner.
1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Loss is not good, loss is a punishment.
But I can show a verse that says all men are born or made upright.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
This verse clearly and plainly says God has made man upright. You cannot deny that, so you argue that this verse is speaking of Adam only, but the word "they" is plural and points back to the word "man" showing this verse is speaking of all mankind, not Adam alone. The word "many" refers to inventions or the sins that caused man to fall from being upright. This word "many" is also plural showing that man falls from his uprightness for many various sins, not Adam's single sin.
So, this verse clearly shows all men are made upright, and that all men fall for their own personal sins, not Adam's single sin.
Your answer will be that I pulled this verse out of context and that it really doesn't mean what it plainly says.
Pathetic. -
This is speaking of the scenario described in 1Cor.3:11-15. It has nothing to do with Adam, our Adamic nature, or even sin. It has only to do with what we have done for Christ or not for Christ. Read the account.
And only by the divine intervention of God can that nature be changed.
"All unrighteousness is sin." (1John 5:17)
"missing the mark" is sin. (Rom.3:23)
Not attaining to the holiness of God is sin.
"To him that knows to do good and does it not" is sin (James 4:17)
"Therefore lay up treasure in heaven where moth and rust does not corrupt..."
Study this book Winman that you, like the cults, do not take the Scripture out of its context. God did not make man upright. It is not speaking here of Adam. Christ said to the rich man: "Why call me good; there is none good but God." The scripture does not contradict itself, but you have Solomon contradicting Christ.
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evangelist6589 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
http://www.thecalvinistcafe.org/forum/ -
Some folks never come clean.
Ecc 7:29 is still a truth. It is an observation of Solomon. He observed that God made man upright, but they seek out many inventions or sins. You can deny all you want, but Solomon believed all men are created or made upright.
Now that is a direct verse addressing man's state of being at creation or birth. It is not a verse about his mother or what she was doing when he was conceived.
And you call me unteachable?, what a laugh. -
The fact is you cannot say that no one before Augustine believed in Original sin or the Depravity of man. They did. It does not matter for what reason they believed in it, they did. You may disagree with why they believed in it; BUT THEY BELIEVED IN IT! Augustine did not originate these doctrines. Many of the ECF believed them before Augustine was even born.
Admit it.
Here is what I said:
"For we will all give account of ourselves before God."
This is speaking of the scenario described in 1Cor.3:11-15. It has nothing to do with Adam, our Adamic nature, or even sin. It has only to do with what we have done for Christ or not for Christ. Read the account.
Again, this is a heavenly scene. We all have our glorified bodies. It has nothing to do with Adam. Why do you make the most ridiculous assumptions?
It is God that decides who is rewarded and who loses rewards; not man.
He sought out happiness in pleasure, riches, women, etc., but found none. All was vanity. In that context you are quoting these scriptures. It is vanity that you do.
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This was spoken of the earliest church fathers. The first ECF who really leaned toward OS was Tertullian
Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Scripture does not teach man is evil from birth, but from "youth" which means puberty, or about the time a person enters their teenage years.
But you never quote this verse, do you? :rolleyes:
1 Kin 4:30 And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt.
31 For he was wiser than all men; than Ethan the Ezrahite, and Heman, and Chalcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol: and his fame was in all nations round about.
Unlike you, Solomon knew what he was talking about, and he said God made man upright, but THEY have sought out many inventions. You have to be intellectually dishonest to interpret this to be speaking of Adam only, Adam is not a "they". :rolleyes:
You just don't want to see the truth. Believe whatever you WANT. -
Here it is again:
while the Latin fathers, especially Tertullian and Cyprian, Hilary and Ambrose, guided rather by their practical experience than by speculative principles, emphasized the hereditary sin and hereditary guilt of man,
These were all before Augustine. Tertullian was not the first. Schaff is a recognized historian. I am not going to bother looking up your links. I have given you a credible source.
He wrote:
"You shall not surely die."
And "You shall be as gods."
Do you also believe these statements Winman?
Just because they are inspired of God doesn't make the statement true. The context must be considered. You ignore context. -
Wow, the battle between David and Goliath takes on new meaning with your interpretations. How old was David, six? How old was Goliath, ten? :laugh:
A "youth" generally means a teenager, someone in puberty. Why are you being ridiculous?
Yet this is your proof-text for Original Sin! :laugh:
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
The persons in Ephesians 2:1-3 are dead in trespasses and sins wherein they walked. A newborn baby cannot commit sin, because he does not know the law, and sin is not imputed when there is no law. Sin can only be committed by someone who knows between good and evil.
You are incredible, it's like arguing with a teenager. :rolleyes:
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Here is what the early church believed, even in the time of Augustine;
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And now here comes the ever verbose posts of DHK. If he cannot win an argument with substance, he buries you in words. Watch and see.
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