GE:
Well, I have a big fella of RC theology who WROTE, denying the Sacrifice of Christ atones for sins, asserting the blood and flesh in the mass do.
per Hebrews/Jesus Died ONCE AND FOR ALL/Why does RCC resacrifice him each Mass?
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by DaChaser1, Feb 20, 2012.
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Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
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Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Yes, First Sheaf was WAVED BEFORE THE LORD through Christ's Resurrection from the dead --- having left behind dying, death, and blood.
Re:
"RCC should stop regarding their dogmas above the Bible itself. They must discern any theology according to the Bible, about whether they are correct or not."
Forget it; it's predetermined they for ever, must. If it were not for Judas, who would betray the Lord?
That would scare the hell out of me ... If there are Elect among them, that will surely scare them clean out of that mother of harlots church. -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Woe the day Protestant won't call the Roman Catholic church anti-Christ!
Woe the day Protestants start to fear persecution, loss, or death for the sake of the Faith of Jesus Christ. -
WHAT did Jesus NOT accomplish by His atoning death upon the Cross on hehalf of sinners?
What did God find lacking in his sacrifice upon that Cross ?
As the RCC finds it lacking, as they have added in a syatem of merotorious gracing thru sacraments, as we have to 'co assist" God in order to be able to get saved!
Its either saved by the grace of God FULLY of the Cross, or there is NO salvation! -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
Now once you are "saved" then you willingly attempt to live the most sanctified life you can which pleases God every sacrament draws you closer to God every Grace Transforms you into the image of God every Good Deed Merits God's good pleasure. This is the result of Calvary. However, if you are not "saved" no matter what you do you cannot earn salvation. And at the end of your life if you remain in Jesus you die in God's grace and your heavenly reward awaits you. That in the nutshell is the catholic faith as explained to a child. -
The RCC believes that even Muslims are saved.
They deny the truth of John 14:6 that Christ is the only way; that no man comes to the Father but by Him. -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
What the church says is that the Muslims say they believe in the same God of Abraham. So do the Jews.
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Romans 3:23-25: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."
Is your exegesis for these verses that all have committed personal sin? Paul is quoting the old testament here (Psalm 14: 1-7). Those passages make a distinction between “evil doers” and “my people” also called therein, the “company of the righteous”. The context of these verses clearly shows that not all have sinned, but all “evil doers” have sinned. If all have sinned, then there are no righteous, a scenario that would put this scripture in conflict with itself. Clearly, this cannot be and only happens when verses are taken out of context.
If, however, in Romans, you believe that Paul is referring to personal sin, then you must make exceptions for infants and small children as they cannot have committed personal sin. Thus, making such an exception, invalidates Paul’s use of the word “all”.
Matthew 9:5-8
New International Version (NIV)
5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?
6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
7 Then the man got up and went home.
8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.
Matthew 18:18
New International Version (NIV)
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will beloosed in heaven.
John 20:21-24
New International Version (NIV)
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”
22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
WM -
[qutoe]Again you show your ignorance. I can't believe you were ever catholic. The priest doesn't forgive your sins. JESUS FORGIVES YOUR SINS. The preist acting on behalf of the Church gives voice to what Jesus has already done.[/quote]
1. If Jesus forgives my sins (according to the RCC), then their is no need to go to Confession. I can go straight to Christ, not to a priest.
2. The priest cannot act on behalf of any church to voice what Jesus has done. Jesus himself is my Great High Priest to whom I can go directly.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
You are saying that sacraments are frivolous and unbiblical and therefore Jesus established them. Right!
BTW, you can't demonstrate a single "sacrament" in the Bible.
I did not mention sanctification. That is a red herring that you just took.
Grace, the Greek word "charis" is not authored by the RCC.
It is a Biblical word, a theological word, God's Word.
It is something you need to study from the Bible apart from the RCC. The RCC is woefully ignorant of God's grace and certainly didn't author it.
Apparently not. Muslims say if they blow themselves up they will go to paradise. Do you naively believe that as well? So you take them at their word that Abraham is their spiritual father? I suppose all the Hindus can make the same claim and you would believe them too?
Do you also believe that Allah is the way to salvation?? -
We ALL have the same 'authority" to announce forgiveness in name of jesus to sinners, when they place faith in him can declare aved, per the Bible!
ALL are priests, no RCC exclusive club for that!
ALL are saints today, ALL have authority in his anme to save sins are forgiven, in sense they have place faith in jesus for forgiveness of their sins...
ALL of ONE mediator today, High Priest Christ
once saved, NEVER can forfeit that, nor be unsaved!
Once again, RCC perverts theBiblcal message by adding extra meanings and using extra sources to redefine 'Christian! -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Jesus does not even address the Lord's Supper or the cross in John 6 but addresses the manna that fell in the days of Moses as a type of himself and the nature of saving faith in Him as the Messiah in metaphorical terms of eating and drinking. The introduction and conclusion of John 6 makes this so clear you have to have blinders on to fail to see it. Peter clearly understands that he is calling upon his hearers to simply believe in Him as the Christ and Son of God and it is the "words of life" that He is the Savior that are to be received by faith not literally eating and literally drinking his blood.
To say that the Roman Catholic Mass is merely a "re-presenting" of the sacrifice of Christ upon the cross is deception at minimum. The Lord's supper is certainly a REPRESENTATION of it but it is not a "re-presenting" of it as Rome defines it because having been offered up once for all there is no "re-presenting" it as that is exactly what the Levitical priests did EVERY YEAR:
Heb. 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Rome simply defines the offering and re-presents it in the very same manner as the Levitical Priesthood did "oftentimes" and their repeated "re-presenting" it is just as ineffectual.
Christ died once LITERALLY and was offered once LITERALLY and that is why He is seated in heaven now as there is no RE-PRESENTING His offering.
The Roman Catholic mass is in reality the REJECTION of the cross and of Jesus Christ! -
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Thinkingstuff Active MemberDaChaser1 said: ↑wrong gospel, wrong application of the scriptures, so the RCC is examined and found as a relious system to be Apostate, illusion of following God, but with beliefs akin to pagenism and Judaizers thrown together!Click to expand...
Many Protestants have ignored Jesus warning about not doing good for others and refuse to do what is right in Matt 25. Thats on you guys not me. I'm just trying to enlighten people but obviously like disobedient men from the begining you put your fingers in your ears yelling "la la la la" and saying what ever nonsense comes to your mind. When you should be worried about the oil in your lamps. -
Thinkingstuff Active MemberThe Biblicist said: ↑I will tell you what is stupid, the whole concept of the Roman Mass is what is stupid!Click to expand...
Jesus does not even address the Lord's Supper or the cross in John 6Click to expand...
but addresses the manna that fell in the days of Moses as a type of himselfClick to expand...and the nature of saving faith in Him as the Messiah in metaphorical terms of eating and drinkingClick to expand...The introduction and conclusion of John 6 makes this so clear you have to have blinders on to fail to see it.Click to expand...Peter clearly understands that he is calling upon his hearers to simply believe in Him as the Christ and Son of God and it is the "words of life" that He is the Savior that are to be received by faith not literally eating and literally drinking his blood.Click to expand...
To say that the Roman Catholic Mass is merely a "re-presenting" of the sacrifice of Christ upon the cross is deception at minimumClick to expand...
You Be carful, you will remember I said this one day. "Jesus said unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you have no life in you." You refused his clear teaching and wear it as a badge of pride to your sorrow. -
Thinkingstuff said: ↑The Catholic Church has been around since the begining. It was only re-examined in the 1500 by a few men and so they have been proven to be apostate allowing for the disunity of believers in over 35,000 denominations who disagree about everything save one thing. They don't have to worry about their sin because God has given them the divine wink of approval so now they can sin all they want and believe in no consequences. After all right here on this board there is a baptist who is saying its impossible for a believer to sin. So certain protestant can continue in their fornication, adultry, making themselves above scriptures because scriptures are interpreted not by the faithful from the begining but each man is his own God.
Many Protestants have ignored Jesus warning about not doing good for others and refuse to do what is right in Matt 25. Thats on you guys not me. I'm just trying to enlighten people but obviously like disobedient men from the begining you put your fingers in your ears yelling "la la la la" and saying what ever nonsense comes to your mind. When you should be worried about the oil in your lamps.Click to expand... -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterThe Biblicist said: ↑He did one better than that. BEFORE they departed he told them explicitly why they were going to leave him and it had to do with the very nature of the lesson he had been teaching them and the "words" he used in teaching that lesson:
60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Peter confirmed that "life" was found in believing in his "words" and therefore to believe in him was to believe in his words:
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Before they departed he told them that the reason they were departing had to do with the very metaphorical lesson he had just taught about saving faith:
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
John gives the expository remark in verse 64 to inform the reader that Christ knew from the very beginning when these disciples and Judas made their profession it was a FALSE profession lacking true belief and that is precisely why
"THEREFORE said I unto you, NO MAN CAN COME unto me, EXCEPT IT WERE GIVEN UNTO HIM of my Father."
The whole previous lesson from John 6:29-59 had been on the nature of saving faith or coming to Christ in faith. He had first illustrated it by the Old Testament manna identifying himself metaphorically with that manna which if a man does eat shall have eternal life - eating and drinking are metaphors of partaking of Christ by faith (Jn. 6:35). He then proceeded to speak of eating his own flesh and blood METAPHORICALLY as partaking of him BY FAITH or believing in HIS WORDS (Jn. 6:47-48).
Peter understood that the lesson of manna and then his own flesh and blood was METAPHORICAL of believing IN HIM and in HIS WORDS.
Both the Pharisees and FALSE PROFESSING disciples interpreted his "words" literally instead of spiritually just as Rome does.
Both the Pharisees and FALSE PROFESSING disciples illustrated his lesson and why he had taught that NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME except it were given unto him of my Father.Click to expand... -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterThe Biblicist said: ↑The whole lesson from John 6:29-6:59 was then applied to the unbeleivers in his midst (Jn. 6:60-65).
Peter understood that his "words" were metaphorical of partaking of Him through faith in Him and his words.
The disciples that departed and Judas are explicitly defined by both John and Christ as FALSE PROFESSORS from the very "beginning" of their profession and following of Christ (Jn. 6:64).
For lost people, coming to Christ in faith is just as repugnant as eating his literal flesh and drinking his literal blood - they will not do it! "Therefore I said unto you, that NO MAN CAN come unto me except it were GIVEN UNTO HIM of my Father."
There is absolutely no excuse to interpret his "words" as literal when he introduces this context with clear and explicit statements which show he is speaking metaphorically:
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Here at the very beginning he establishes his metaphorical application that coming to him is equal to never HUNGERING and that believing in him is equal to never THIRSTING. He calls on them to EAT him as the BREAD OF LIFE in this sense.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Again, he makes it crystal clear that believing on him is the way to obtain eternal life (v. 47) and then directly makes the metaphorical application "I am the bread of life" which he likens first to the "manna" (NOT THE LORD'S SUPPER) that fell in the wilderness. Eating of this METAPHORICAL MANNA means BELIEVING IN HIM.
Peter understood what he was saying exactly in response to those FALSE PROFESSORS or unbelieving disciples when he said,
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God..
Peter saw plainly that eternal life was found in his "WORDS" not his literal flesh and blood, and not that He was literal "manna" and that Christ was calling on them to "BELIEVE" in Him or partake of him by faith, thus metaphorically as one would partake of him by eating and drinking of him or eating manna.
Rome follows the interpretation of the Christ rejecting Pharisees and unbelieving disciples rather than understanding and following Peter's interpretation of his "words."Click to expand... -
WestminsterMan said: ↑Paul said "..all have sinned." If all have sinned then Jesus must have sinned. Either that, or "all" really doesn't mean"all". Hmmm...Click to expand...
Romans 3:23-25: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."
Is your exegesis for these verses that all have committed personal sin? Paul is quoting the old testament here (Psalm 14: 1-7). Those passages make a distinction between “evil doers” and “my people” also called therein, the “company of the righteous”. The context of these verses clearly shows that not all have sinned, but all “evil doers” have sinned. If all have sinned, then there are no righteous, a scenario that would put this scripture in conflict with itself. Clearly, this cannot be and only happens when verses are taken out of context.Click to expand...
If, however, in Romans, you believe that Paul is referring to personal sin, then you must make exceptions for infants and small children as they cannot have committed personal sin. Thus, making such an exception, invalidates Paul’s use of the word “all”.Click to expand...
Hmmm...
Matthew 9:5-8
New International Version (NIV)
5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?
6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
7 Then the man got up and went home.
8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.Click to expand...
Matthew 18:18
New International Version (NIV)
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will beloosed in heaven.Click to expand...
Whatever the local church had decided God was with them. Check verse 20.
John 20:21-24
New International Version (NIV)
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”
22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”Click to expand...
23. Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them,Click to expand...&c.--In any literal and authoritative sense this power was never exercised by one of the apostles, and plainly was never understood by themselves as possessed by them or conveyed to them. (See on Cmt. on Mt 16:19). The power to intrude upon the relation between men and God cannot have been given by Christ to His ministers in any but a ministerial or declarative sense--as the authorized interpreters of His word, while in the actings of His ministers, the real nature of the power committed to them is seen in the exercise of church discipline.Click to expand...
Incorrect! The RCC makes no judgement on who is in heaven or who in hell. Even the saints are thought to be in heaven because of their exemplified life.Click to expand...
You just contradicted yourself and made a judgment didn't you.
I don't believe that they deny any such thing.Click to expand... -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite SupporterZenas said: ↑DaChaser, there is a book called Catholicism for Dummies that is available everywhere. Barnes & Noble, Amazon, local book stores, you name it. It runs about $15.00 and is totally authoritative. It would answer all the questions you are positing here, and more. You ought to get a copy and read it--unless of course you prefer to live in ignorance of this topic about which you show such interest but yet have such contempt.Click to expand...
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Thinkingstuff Active MemberThe Biblicist said: ↑Ok, TS deal with the evidenceClick to expand...
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