Perserverance

I know quite a number of Christians of the Reformed persuasion, as I am myself, and I must say that I have never seen or heard any with your take on that position. Like you, we are resting - resting on the finished work of Christ at Calvary. We don't go around boasting, "Look at me! I'm elect!" Rather, our testimony (well, mine, anyway - I shouldn't presume to speak for others) is, "Look at what the Lord Jesus Christ has done for me!"

When someone believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, that shows they are elect. Perhaps it would help, and save any further confusion, if you could say briefly what you believe election to be. Possibly you ascribe a different meaning to it than I do. (I'm sure there's something ungrammatical in that last sentence, but I hope you get my meaning).

 

You have a lot to learn if you don't think Christians can fall back into sin. I pray your arrogance doesn't cause wind up where you think you couldn't possibly be:

Pro 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

 

Where does sanctification fall into your black and white theology of saved or not saved?

 

You have asked a very good question. However, that same type of question can be asked of other beliefs concerning the security of the believer.

For the Calvinists, how do you know that you are a part of the elect and will perserve to the end?

For the Non-Calvinist Eternal Security Believer, how do you know that you are not really a true Christian now, who only thinks he is a true Christian? If you stop trusting Christ in the future, you are not a true Christian now; you just think you are.

For the Classic Arminian, you are a True Christian now, but how do you know that you will not stop trusting Christ in the future and forfeit your salvation?

For the Wesleyan Arminian, you are a true Christian now, but how do you know that you will not in the future, resist, over a long period of time, the dealings of the Holy Spirit about sin in your life and not acknowledge and repent of those sins you are convicted of; thereby losing your salvation?

Of course the answer in each of these four beliefs is faith in Christ's saving and keeping power.

It is interesting how Christians can see the uncertainty in other beliefs, and not recognize the same type of uncertainty in their own belief.

No debate intended.

 

I based this comment on your statement:

I agree completely with this! :thumbsup:

 

That logic sounds good, but it is the same logic that every person ever claiming salvation can point to even those who fall away. In other words to say i know I am saved because i know am saved is not knowing since many who have professed knowing fall away. There is a way to know from the bible but not because someone says the bible says I am saved or because they say i am saved. There is a test.

 

IMHO, both Cals/DoGs and Arminians have a faulty view of faith. The scriptures show that believeing on Jesus and being given everlasting life is a once and for all event.
Luke 7:48-50 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
This woman's sins weren't forgiven for one day, they were forgiven once and for all.
In John 5:24 Jesus said he that believes on him has passed from death to life.
The moment a person trusts Jesus they pass from death to life, they have everlasting life NOW. There is nothing to persevere or endure, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit forever.
What was the seal of Abraham's righteousness imputed to him? Circumcision. Can that be undone?

 

As I said before, "It is interesting how Christians can see the uncertainty in other beliefs, and not recognize the same type of uncertainty in their own belief."

 

As our Savior said

(Luk 6:41) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

Im still waiting Winman. Answer.

 

Your request is ridiculous, Perseverance of the Saints is your doctrine, not mine. You should explain it to me, not the other way around.

The simple and commonly accepted definition of persevere is to persist.

Ok, what does that mean? What do you believe a person must persist in to be saved?

So, you explain this doctrine to me.

 

Yep. You can't answer so you resort to insolence. When you bring up perseverance of the saints, or any other doctrine, you need to be able to know what you are talking about before you go slamming it. What do the Scriptures say about slamming something you don't understand?


When you can't answer, which by the way is nearly always, you run, as you are doing now. :)

Why do you delve into and mock things and doctrines you clearly do not understand?

I am happy to know that you cannot answer me. It's too difficult for you to do so.

Keep your tail tucked.

Good bye, winman!

:smilewinkgrin:

 

No, I can explain it as well as any, but you will immediately say I misrepresent your doctrine, Calvinism's favorite objection. Trying to nail you guys down is like trying to pin a tail on a wisp of smoke.

And I notice you conveniently forgot to explain how you define perseverance, a word that occurs only once in scripture and pertains to praying for fellow saints.

I would say it means to persist in faith, this faith being demonstrated by good works and turning from sin. I have seen enough comments from Calvinists here to safely assume this is a general explanation.

I have never seen it explained just how good you have to be, or how one determines when one has sinned enough to be deemed fallen from the faith.

So, don't give me this stuff about not understanding your doctrine, I have been debating you guys a long time and understand you far better than you give me credit for.

 

Again, you are talking about the Arminian doctrine, not the Calvinist doctrine. If you have been debating for a long time, then why do you continue to misrepresent.

No Calvinists believes you can fall from faith. Arminians believe that you can. Yes, we keep the faith. And faith is shown by good works, not kept by good works. If you don't like us telling you that you are misrepresenting us, then stop misrepresenting us.

Calvinism - Believers will persevere in salvation because God will see to it that none will be lost. Believers are secure in the faith because God will finish the work he began.
- from about.com

Noticed the "because" statements. It's not dependent on us persevering, but God doing the work. We persevere because God preserves us.

 

My point in that was to show that there are people who think they are saved but are not because of their depravity. When we are saved we are set apart and are continually being set-apart. Im not sure what you were meaning when you asked the question to be honest?

 

I understand that, and if you go back a few posts you will see I said that.

And I agree 100% with Calvinists that a truly elect person will persevere till the end.

That is not the question. The question is how a Calvinist can have complete assurance they are truly elect? Simply professing that you are elect is no proof as Calvinists themselves freely admit that some who profess to be elect fall away.

A Calvinist has a threat to assurance that non Calvinists do not. A Calvinist believes that God has no intention of saving many people, indeed the vast majority of persons. A Calvinist cannot be absolutely sure they are elect when there is a real possibility God does not love them, indeed he may hate them.

Knowing this, their only hope is to persevere, whatever that means. If they do not persevere they know they are not elect, but even doing so they cannot be sure.

 

Good

We put our trust in God for our salvation. How do you, Winman, know that you are saved? It's the same way as we do. We have full assurance of our salvation because of what Christ has done for us. We believe in Jesus Christ. As you said you agreed with, we will persevere because of God. How do you know you are elect? Because we are saved. Remember Christ's words in John 6 that, "All that the Father gives me will come to me" The elect are the ones that come to Jesus. Those that are elect will come", and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

I trust in God, not my "free will" for my salvation and the keeping of my salvation. Arminians depend on their free will to keep their salvation.