Pope Francis rejects Viri Probati for Amazon

So true - it is Christ right here with us, his Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. Praise God!

Amen! I could not have said it better myself.

God and His people brought together. What a wonderful thing!

Amen to that. You who do not have the Holy Eucharist just can not understand this truth. Am I not right?

Without the Holy Eucharist (Christ), we are nothing. This is so very true.

Why wouldn't any Christian not want to have a communion with Christ and unite ourselves with him in this most blessed way? If I loved Christ, I would run to the Church that had Jesus in this most special way. Run I tell you, run to it, not away.

I want to thank you for posting those paragraph's from the Catechism, I love reading them and the beauty and the truth that they are. Thank you again!

 

The process is simple, God died for sinners. God saves those helpless sinners. God gives those sinners faith to believe. God immerses those believers into Himself. God brings these faith-filled sinners to daily repentance. God sanctifies these faith-filled, repentant sinners and tells them that he will never leave them nor forsake them.

Salvation is entirely God's work and God's alone. We don't assist him. We simply rest in His amazing grace, which he gave to us when we did not merit it and could not help him out. We fell so short that there was nothing we could do but to watch as God did all the work. That is grace. God giving to us what we did not deserve and could not achieve.

Adonia, what you teach is legalism and law (works) based. It glorifies humans as assisting God, which lessens God and the amazing work that God does when we are helpless to assist. How I wish you understood grace.

 

You cannot conceive that what you affirm is false teaching that teaches legalism and salvation by works. It is just sad that you cannot see the error.

 

No. The motive for salvation is God's kindness on us. Paul for example says he was saved for his ignorance.

There is no bill to be paid. Anymore then if your own daughter started to smoke crack, you'd want them to stop despite living saintly before.

Acting rightly is the salvation.

I simply have to echo Jesus Christ as far as the goal of salvation.

Luke 10
25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”

Your corrupt version of Jesus would never have given this answer.

What would Calvinist Jesus answer? " Light a cigarette, cross your fingers, if God likes you then you will be saved, if he hates you then you are damned."

Jesus' answer is unacceptable to you, you can't say amen to it. Its a joke to you.

Calvinist Jesus' answer honestly.....don't you think his answer is better? If God likes you then you will be saved, If God hates you then you will be damned.

You can't find Jesus expressing your trash. I can say AMEN to EVERYTHING Jesus says, it harmonizes perfectly.

You can't harmonize what he says in scripture you sweep it under the rug.

If we asked Jesus what must I do to inherit life? This is the answer you like.

"you can't do anything. If My Father loves you then you will be saved. If he hates you then you will be damned"

You hate his actual answer, look how it obstructs and gets in your way.

And then when he gives the exemplar of someone who follows him.....He picks a Samaritan. The guys who pass by the injured man.....might as well be elect. They certainly think themselves too.

Your theology as is would damn the good Samaritan on account he is not a christian nor "elect".

You have the easiest case to prove us wrong. Show us someone who is "saved" who hates God or/and neighbor.

Or even show us someone who Loves God and Neighbor and is damned.

 

Oh please, the error is yours. The error is your assessment of what we believe - you are wrong, wrong, wrong and completely off base. Your rejection of orthodox Christian belief's has led you to a terrible place where you cannot see the forest from the trees.

 

Oops! Isn't following the law legalism as put forth by our somewhat misguided friend Particular? Yes, I would say so. The Scriptures themselves seem to be awful legalistic right from the beginning with God sending mankind the 10 Commandments and then all the way down to your example from above. St. Paul giving the command to the Corinthians that they should toe the line as regards religious matters is another example of "legalism", is it not? We cannot escape the legalistic authoritative mindset of the scriptures in any way, shape, manner, or form.

 

We get a ENTIRE WARNING in one Epistle all based on people trying to deviate away from the commandments.

2 John 1

Walk According to His Commandments

1The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, 2for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: 3Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

4I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth, just as we have received commandment to do from the Father. 5Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

7For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. 9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

12Though I have many things to write to you, I do not want to do so with paper and ink; but I hope to come to you and speak face to face, so that your joy may be made full.

13The children of your chosen sister greet you.



Notice the 2 things it says about Faith Alone..........Jack and Squat.

This is about what is essential. Not useless Gnostic philosophy.

"Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward."
A Calvinist would have thrown a fit at the idea of anyone accomplishing anything and losing it.



" 9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds."

What teaching is this? What is so essential that need be said? What teaching is the EVIL ones don't bring?

--->that we love one another. 6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

 

You wrote: "Acting rightly is the salvation."

You teach a gospel of self-righteous works without grace. You teach legalism (just as your church taught you).

Jesus taught that all whom the Father has given him will be saved and he will not lose one of them.

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

Those whom the Father has chosen will hear his voice.

Utilyan, the "good" Samaritan is not good enough to be saved. He is a wretched rebel who is in need of God's grace. God chooses to whom he will give his grace. Remember we are wretched rebellious criminals to whom he is choosing to be gracious. We are not "good." How could we dare to think we "act rightly" and he must save us? No, we are the thieves on the cross. Either we hear God speak and we respond in declaring him righteous or we mock.

Hebrews 4:7 “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.”

 

Just look at utilyan's works salvation and own it as your churches teaching.

 

This is what the Catholic Church says about Grace. In 1996 (CCC) it says: "Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God ,gives us to become children of God, adoptive sons , partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life". It then goes to say in 2003 (CCC) "Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us" - with all that staring with the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ on the Cross. I fail to see where the church does not recognize the free gift that grace is.

But you say that we have no part in this thing called salvation. So all the things the scriptures say otherwise is a lie? That we must be baptized? That we will reap what we sow? That we must love our neighbor? That we must obey all the commandments of God? Do none of those things and we will still be "saved"? No, I don't think so.

 

Adonia, you prove the point I have been making about the RCC catechism. That being the RCC is filled with double-speak and contradiction so that no one can actually know what is correct.
While you find a comment on grace, I find salvation by works (legalism) via baptism and communion.

Such contradiction and confusion oozes through your church because your church teaches tradition as equal to or corrective of the scriptures itself. The reason the RCC has over 2000 points in its catechism is precisely because it is based on legalism. Thank you for helping make this point for me.

Catholic Legalism:

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5

1324 The Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life."136 "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch."137

1325 "The Eucharist is the efficacious sign and sublime cause of that communion in the divine life and that unity of the People of God by which the Church is kept in being. It is the culmination both of God's action sanctifying the world in Christ and of the worship men offer to Christ and through him to the Father in the Holy Spirit."138

1326 Finally, by the Eucharistic celebration we already unite ourselves with the heavenly liturgy and anticipate eternal life, when God will be all in all.139

1327 In brief, the Eucharist is the sum and summary of our faith: "Our way of thinking is attuned to the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn confirms our way of thinking."140

1331 Holy Communion, because by this sacrament we unite ourselves to Christ, who makes us sharers in his Body and Blood to form a single body.151

 

Legalism (as you call it), there is nothing wrong with anything that you have posted there. They are the orthodox Christian interpretation of those things which are found in the Scriptures. You on the other hand have your particular (excuse the pun) interpretation of what was said - that is all you have, nothing else, and you think you are right. Well, I think you are wrong.

You are not the "Grand Poohbah" on things scriptural, of how we humans find ourselves interacting with God in light of Sacred Scripture, and of the correct manner in which to do so. All you have is an opinion, a viewpoint, an assessment, an interpretation - that's it! I am truly not impressed by your attempts to show yourself as the be all and end all of the Christian experience and biblical interpretation.

Nope, not at all.

 

Adonia, your church has purposely created a catechismal tome to obfuscate the clear teaching of God in the Bible and then tell its congregants that church tradition determines biblical interpretation. The Reformation showed how far off base the RCC is and yet the RCC doubled down on its false teaching while calling all "Bereans" heretics.

I have shown you the contradictions in the RCC catechism and still you fail to acknowledge it. I have shown your church colleague, utilyan, how he teaches works salvation (a teaching of your church) and how it is contrary to the Bible.

In this thread we see how wrong the pope is in regard to elders (church leaders) being married. Not only that, but having priests in a church has zero biblical support and is an imposition of Roman paganism on the churches.

I do not understand how anyone would follow their church above and instead of following Christ Jesus and God's word. When I see a church demanding that much control it is always a cult that is not a part of the body of Christ. Flee the cult you are in, Adonia.

 

Oh boy, here we go with the "cult" charge again. Perhaps you are the one in the cult because you are the one who rejects orthodox Christian teachings. You and your sect have no resemblance to the early Christian Church as it evolved into the early centuries. It took 1600 years for your guy to come up with what he did and that is the crux of your problem. I don't understand how you can follow such an error filled institution.

You mentioned the "reformation", but truth be told you don't even agree with the original "reformers" and what those corresponding churches stand for and teach today, do you? Do you see the Lutheran Church as having any validity? The Anglican Church perhaps? Or maybe the Methodist Church, are they correct about scripture in any significant way? So come on and be honest, you and your sect rejects even those mainline protestant denominations, right?

 

Yes, that is true. The catechism is simply an expounding on what the Church believes and teaches and there is nothing wrong with that.

When your church is the one instituted by Jesus Christ himself it is easy. It is easy because the Holy Spirit guides the church as it interprets God's word. Jesus and the Church are one, like the bride and the bridegroom - they cannot be separated. When the Church speaks, it is Jesus we hear.

 

We can decide this by scripture alone. No church catechisms needed. What say you? Remove your church teachings and speak scripture?

 

The Roman Church is not the church instituted by Jesus Christ, so it's not easy for you.
The Holy Spirit does indeed guide God's chosen people, the actual Church and body of Christ. The RCC is neither the bride nor the church instituted by Jesus Christ, which means it is...a cult. A wolf trying to wear sheep's clothing. May those whom God has chosen, who attend an RCC church, flee the harlot of Rome.

 

Wrong. You are excellent at pointing out flaws with stawmen, not the Catholic Faith.

Any "self" righteous work, we call that evil. Good works have God as its source.

"Those whom the Father has chosen will hear his voice."

Right which is why when he says Love God and Love neighbor we hear him and don't ignore it. You are hardening your heart to his command because you view Love as weakness.

Its like you were told you should believe your driving instructor to know how to drive.

And the driving instructor himself says stop at the stop signs.

And you say you don't have to stop at the stop signs because all you have to do is believe your driving instructor.

That's insane.

Matthew 5

19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You are the first person who comes to mind teaching folks to ignore the commandments.

"Utilyan, the "good" Samaritan is not good enough to be saved. He is a wretched rebel who is in need of God's grace. God chooses to whom he will give his grace. Remember we are wretched rebellious criminals to whom he is choosing to be gracious. We are not "good." How could we dare to think we "act rightly" and he must save us? No, we are the thieves on the cross. Either we hear God speak and we respond in declaring him righteous or we mock."

I'm Sure Calvinist Jesus would agree with you.

Biblical Jesus however says

Luke 10

36“Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers’ hands?” 37And he said, “The one who showed mercy toward him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do the same.”


Micah 6

8He has told you, O man, what is good;
And what does the LORD require of you
But to do justice, to love kindness,
And to walk humbly with your God?

God has told us what is required of us.


There is no good works "score", we trust in God's mercy. Hating God and Hating your neighbor will not save you. Hating God is not going to help you trust God either.

Matthew 5
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


All you have to do is present scripture to prove us wrong, you have presented nothing over and over.

Just your indoctrinated TRADITION.

 

utilyan, I quoted you. You preach works salvation. No strawman, just the exact words you provided.

 

Nope. We have these things spelled out. You just need better reading comprehension.

Council of Trent:

1. If anyone says that man is justified before God by his own works (whether done through the teaching of human nature or the law) without the grace of God through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.
2. If anyone says that the grace of God through Jesus Christ is given only that man may live justly and merit eternal life, as if by free will (without grace) he could do both, let him be anathema.
3. If anyone says that without the inspiration and help of the Holy Ghost man can believe, hope, love or be penitent as he ought, so the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.

The small difference is you think God pulled the rug from under everyone's feet, so you are stuck in a accusatory state that is so bad you can't even name one legit elect living Christian other than yourself.

We simply sit back and ask well give us the scripture to support your claim and you give none.

This is what happens when someone tries to 1up humility with FALSE HUMILITY.