1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Practical Antinomians?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Pastor_Bob, Mar 2, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    21,669
    Likes Received:
    1,511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    70
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Romans 3:19-21 where Paul defines his own term "under the law" to mean "under condemnation" of the Law.

    Which is why Paul claims that this still applies even to the saints

    "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
    "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

    Paul says the saints walk in the Spirit so as to fulfill the Law rather than be at war against it.

    Romans 8
    4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.


    =============== no wonder the Bible gives us this --

    Eph 6
    Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), 3 so that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on the earth.


    James 4.
    8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

    1 John 2:1 'these things I write to you that you sin not"
    1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law"
     
  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    21,669
    Likes Received:
    1,511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The law can only condemn you.

    Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
     
  4. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,171
    Likes Received:
    25
    Faith:
    Baptist
    SDA's try to keep the Law. There was condemnation as shown in with the Law, but it is not for us as Believers. The Law was to keep Israel as people for the Messiah. It is not in effect for the believer. We are not condemned but free
     
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    21,669
    Likes Received:
    1,511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You misapply each of the scriptures you give.

    Children are under the law until they come to grace.

    The Spirit will not lead a Christian into sin or a pretense of holiness.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    70
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    New Covenant -- according to the OLD Testament "I will write MY LAWs on their hearts and minds" Jer 31:31-33

    The POV of the lost -- is condemnation by the LAW - as Paul points out in Romans 3:19-21
    The POV of the saved - is the LAW written on the heart. Jer 31:31-33 "What! Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

    Well you have a clear statement on one of those points of view -- that is for certain
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    70
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Romans 8
    4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

    You are too kind sir. :)
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    70
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    IT is true that the LAW is not to condemn believers but it IS to be "written on the heart and mind" Jeremiah 31:31-33 for believers.

    You are a believer ... right?


    Until you read the Bible

    See Romans 3:19-21 where Paul defines his own term "under the law" to mean "under condemnation" of the Law.

    Which is why Paul claims that this still applies even to the saints

    "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
    "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

    Paul says the saints walk in the Spirit so as to fulfill the Law rather than be at war against it.

    Romans 8
    4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.


    =============== no wonder the Bible gives us this --

    Eph 6
    Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), 3 so that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on the earth.


    James 4.
    8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

    1 John 2:1 'these things I write to you that you sin not"
    1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law"
     
  9. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,171
    Likes Received:
    25
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do you have to know the Law in order to be saved?

    The law condemns yet all laws can show fault
    Rom 2:14
    For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    Sin exists with out the Law , the difference is accountability.

    The Law is for the Jews between Moses and Jesus, not Abraham , not us, not some of my ancestors. Keeping the Law insures the nation and people survives for the Messiah. That is done, It is not for us. You can't choose what to uphold and not, You cannot keep the Law

    All of Hebrews shows Jesus is better than the Law. or the Law is inadequate and therefore unnecessary compared to Grace
     
  10. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,171
    Likes Received:
    25
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I wanted to add, trying to keep the law or any actions, even tithing where we focus on the act to obtain favor rather than the action as obedience is legalism and is wrong. Grace is sufficient, obedience is desired.

    I should provide for my family in love not because there is a law and penalty not to.


    from near Athens, GA
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    70
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
    "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

    Paul says the saints walk in the Spirit so as to fulfill the Law rather than be at war against it.

    Romans 8
    4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.


    =============== no wonder the Bible gives us this --

    Eph 6
    Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), 3 so that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on the earth.


    James 4.
    8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

    1 John 2:1 'these things I write to you that you sin not"
    1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law"

    The argument for the Bible is not an argument "against" Love.

    But when you bend your point to such an extreme that you must argue against those texts -- you have crossed a line that is not defensible.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    70
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Can you be saved apart from the New Covenant?
     
  13. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,171
    Likes Received:
    25
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If you substitute your actions, or add any action to God's Grace, you detract from it. Grace is a gift, Are you to pay for it or earn it.?

    Is your version of the New Covenant a continuation of the OLD? No it is the finished work of Christ

    Are you claiming the promises made to Israel as though made to Gentile believers?
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    70
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Let's make this real simple.

    1. We do not "earn" heaven by "not taking God's name in vain"
    2. At the same time - "By their fruits you shall know them" teaching of Christ - is saying that the saints DO NOT go "taking God's name in vain all the way to heaven".

    This is one of those "Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible" kind of questions. It is not enough to HAVE the Bible - one must actually read it. It is not enough to CLAIM the New Covenant .. one must read what it actually is.

    The difference between New Covenant and Old is not the command "Do not take God's name in vain" -- that command is in BOTH covenants.

    The difference is that the LAW of God is "written on heart and mind" according to Jeremiah 31:31-33 under the NEW Covenant - but the OLD Covenant is the condition of the LAW of God merely external on stone - and condemning the lost sinner ... pointing to Guilt and not at all "A savior" rather it reveals that the lost sinner NEEDS the Gospel - needs the Savior.

    You say that as if you have not read the New Covenant... that is UNCHANGED in the NT.

    Hebrews 8
    He says,


    “Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
    When I will effect a new covenant
    With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
    9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
    On the day when I took them by the hand
    To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
    For they did not continue in My covenant,
    And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
    10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
    After those days, says the Lord:
    I will put My laws into their minds,
    And I will write them on their hearts.
    And I will be their God,
    And they shall be My people.
    11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
    And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
    For all will know Me,
    From the least to the greatest of them.
    12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
    And I will remember their sins no more.”

    That is "THE GOSPEL" solution for sin that comes about through Christ.

    It is what Paul calls in Gal 1:6-9 "the ONE Gospel"
     
  15. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,171
    Likes Received:
    25
    Faith:
    Baptist
    “Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
    When I will effect a new covenant
    With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;

    10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel

    you highlighted these words,

    Hebrews was written to those who knew lived in the Old Covenant and was being explained what Jesus has done and promised to the Hebrews. There is one gospel of Jesus, but Israel should lead the world in the recognition that Jesus is the Christ,
    Look at Ezekial , these are events that will happen to Israel.

    We are not part of Israel, or Judah, We may share in the fulfillment of those promises

    A covenant is not a equal bilateral contract. It is a one sided decision of actions. God will preform His promises,
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    70
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Yes I did..

    I also highlighted in red the part that points out it is the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 that was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

    “Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
    When I will effect a new covenant
    With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
    9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
    On the day when I took them by the hand
    To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
    For they did not continue in My covenant,
    And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
    10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
    After those days, says the Lord:
    I will put My laws into their minds,
    And I will write them on their hearts.
    And I will be their God,
    And they shall be My people.
    11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
    And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
    For all will know Me,
    From the least to the greatest of them.
    12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
    And I will remember their sins no more.”


    Those words as penned by Jeremiah - unchanged in Hebrews 8.

    Yes ... "one Gospel" and we find it in the Jeremiah 31:31-33 "New Covenant" which is how Moses and Elijah are able to stand in glory with Christ in Matthew 17 before the cross even happens.


    So then .. you do admit that you are a "New Covenant" Christian even though it is explicitly for "the house of Israel and the house of Judah"?

    That New Covenant has all the aspects of the Gospel.
     
  17. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,171
    Likes Received:
    25
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Are you trying to be Jewish and a Christian?

    This was settled In Acts . The Jews demanded the new Christians be circumscribed in order to be of the Law., which is wrong .

    We today can be saved without knowledge of the Law, or persons of Moses or David. We only have to know Jesus is our only hope.

    You do not uphold Jewish Law in order to be a Christian. Christianity is not the LAW+.

    Read Acts 10 and 11 again
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    70
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    1. A Christian that reads the Bible.
    2. A Christian that is under the New Covenant - and has read what the New Covenant is

    Even in Acts 15 the argument they make is that the Christians are all hearing Moses preached every Sabbath in the Synagogues and in fact Acts 18:4 shows it "every Sabbath" they gather both Jews and Gentiles to hear Gospel preaching and to worship.

    This is not my argument for the ceremonial law which ended as Hebrews 10 states - at the cross.

    It is my argument for upholding the Bible Ten Commandments as the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant as even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" admits.
     
  19. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,171
    Likes Received:
    25
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What happens if you do not keep the "moral law?
     
  20. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    20
    Ultimately? 2nd death. Compare Revelation 21:8 "liars" to, 1 John 2:4 "liar".
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...