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Featured Predestination is that of a saved man unto a resurrection body in Christ's image

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by George Antonios, Jul 29, 2020 at 9:00 PM.

  1. George Antonios

    George Antonios Active Member

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    1) No verse ever specifically states when predestination occurs
    2) Predestination is never unto salvation
    3) Predestination is unto adoption
    4) Adoption is defined as the redemption of the body
    5) Said adoption occurs at the resurrection
    6) To bear the image of Christ's resurrection body is a blessing connected to salvation, not salvation per se

    Please watch the whole video and prove it wrong WITH DEFINING CROSS-REFERENCES for the terms "predestination", "adoption", "image", etc.
    In a parallel and earlier thread, the only one who had even attempted that was @ivdavid.
    I disagree with him, but I respect the fact that he replied with such cross-references to define the terms.

     
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  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I believe that "these whom He predestined, He also called" [Romans 8:30] implies an order.
    Since you disagree, we have nothing to really say to one another except ... "we disagree".
    God Bless.
     
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  3. George Antonios

    George Antonios Active Member

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    Did you watch the video?
    God bless you too.
     
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Good work
     
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  5. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    No (I do not have sound at work), but I read your argument on most of this in another topic. Your logic holds up well and builds precept upon precept, but it all rests on certain initial assumptions that I disagree with. From different initial assumptions (like Romans 8 is presenting a Chronological order), one arrives at different conclusions.

    I tend to look to the immediate context and the original language for clarification of meaning. You generally ignore the original language and look to verses of similar topic to explain the meaning. Our radically different methodologies often yield incompatible results. It is unsafe for me to substitute YOUR conscience for MINE when trying to learn Biblical Truth. It is better for me to be "honestly wrong" than "falsely right".

    I am genuinely grateful for having heard your views. They are not "crazy heretical drivel" (like Paul was not an Apostle so everything he wrote was false). Therefore they are beneficial. I learned a lot from Presbyterian Theology on Covenant Baptism and how they view Acts 2 as the initiation of a new covenant with Peter standing in the role of Moses for the people (men, women and children). I do not agree with them, but I learned from interacting with them and my understanding of scripture is richer for the experience. So too, has interacting with you and hearing your views on predestination to adoption to a new body at our glorification has added a level of appreciation of scripture for me.

    For better or worse, I have been irreparably impacted by the concept taught to me by a Southern Baptist Pastor of "already and not yet". So I cannot help but see that I was adopted before the foundation of the world, when God foreknew (relationally chose) me, and I am adopted right now as I am being sanctified with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to empower and guarantee the change, and I will be adopted when God calls me home to my glorified body. Once I was a rebellious child, now I am a "work-in-progress" child, one day I will be a perfected child. Never was I unloved by God.
     
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  6. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    If like you say "order" is so important then how can you deny the order Of Jn 3:16, Acts 16:31 Belief always being first?
     
  7. George Antonios

    George Antonios Active Member

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    I understand where you're coming from, and agree about the source of our disagreement.
    That was a truly delightful post, and despite our disagreement, we are brothers in Christ. I have learned many things from people who differ with me on things.
    God bless you brother.
     
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  8. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Start a topic and I'll be happy to discuss it. This is George's party.
     
  9. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I watched part of it, George, and I'll watch the rest later.
    For now, I'd like to address the points in your OP.

    To begin with, I define the term, "pre-destination", to literally mean "to determine one's destiny before-hand ".
    Vocabulary.com ( predestination - Dictionary Definition ) defines it like this: "previous determination as if by destiny or fate."

    So, on the basis of that definition, I'll answer your points with pertinent Scriptures.
    I see that the destiny of the "whosoever believeth" was determined before the world began here:

    " according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. "
    ( Ephesians 1:4-6 ).

    To be "in Christ" is to not be condemned ( Romans 8:1 ).
    To be "in Christ" is to be a new creation ( 2 Corinthians 5:17 ).
    To be "in Christ" is to be God's workmanship ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
    To be "in Christ" is to be sons ( and daughters ) of God ( Galatians 3:26-27 ).


    Therefore, to be chosen "in Him" from before the foundation of the world, is to be chosen to salvation ( see 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
    The only way anyone enjoys salvation and eternal life, is to be "in Christ", or part of His spiritual body.

    In other words, to have the benefits of being saved is to be saved.
     
    #9 Dave G, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:02 PM
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020 at 9:48 PM
  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I maintain that the choice by God to determine the believer's ( His elect's ) destiny was always to salvation:

    1) " And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

    Here I see that one is ordained to eternal life ( which is to know God and His Son and is a benefit of salvation from His eternal wrath ) and then they believe.
    Therefore, the believer's destiny was ordained, before they believed.


    2) " All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." ( John 6:37 ).

    In this passage I see that first one is given to the Son by the Father, and they then, in the passage of time, come to ( believe on ) Christ.
    I also know from other Scriptures that whosoever believeth on Christ has ( present tense ) everlasting life...not "will have".


    3) " Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." ( Psalms 65:4 ).

    Here I see that God chooses the person who is blessed first, and then causes that person to approach Him.


    4) " But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said
    , Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. " ( John 6:64-65 ).

    Here I see that no man can come to ( believe on ) Christ, except it were given to that person to believe ( Philippians 1:29 ).
    Belief on His Son is therefore restricted to ( and further qualified by ) other Scriptures which define how and why someone believes on Him.
    Also, the fact that they were providentially given to Jesus by the Father is "predestination" of that person to salvation, which includes belief and faith.
    I agree, at least partially.
    Technically, I see the words "predestinated"/ "predestined" contextually and in translations like the AV, speaking directly to one of three things:

    Romans 8:29 = To being conformed to the image of Christ.

    Ephesians 1:5 = The adoption of children.
    Therefore, the believer is predestinated by God, to their being adopted as the children of God.

    Ephesians 1:11 = To obtaining an inheritance.
     
    #10 Dave G, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:05 PM
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020 at 9:50 PM
  11. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I disagree.

    The way I see the Scriptures developing, adoption is being made a part of God's family, of which Christ is the first of many brethren ( Romans 8:29 ).
    It's is spiritual as well as physical.
    Believers are already the sons of God, and the proof of that is the Holy Spirit:

    " For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."
    ( Romans 8:14-15 ).

    Here I clearly see that as many as have the Holy Spirit and are led by Him, they ARE the sons of God...
    Not "will be".
    They have been sealed by that same Spirit of adoption ( Ephesians 1:13 ).
    I see that the adoption of the body does indeed occur at the resurrection ( Romans 8:23 ), but the adoption of the spirit has already taken place.
    Believers are new creations in Christ because of the new birth ( 2 Corinthians 5:17 ).
    I agree.
    As I see it, our glorified, redeemed bodies as resurrected believers are one of God's many gifts related to His saving grace.
     
    #11 Dave G, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:05 PM
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020 at 9:16 PM
  12. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    There are only two ' calls ' in the bible . The Call of the Gospel and call to service .
     
  13. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    Amen .
     
  14. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    Being a child of God is not the same as 'adoption ' . We become a child of God through the new birth. The adoption is the redemption! of ! the body. until then we recieve the SPIRIT OF adoption .
     
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  15. George Antonios

    George Antonios Active Member

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    Most of the points you mentioned in the posts were addressed in the video.
    Also, could you please specifically correct what is wrong in the video study?
     
    #15 George Antonios, Jul 31, 2020 at 1:29 PM
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020 at 2:13 PM
  16. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Exactly when will those children be manifested as sons (children) of God? Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God., Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from (out of) the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence., Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruit; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first-fruit of his creatures.1 John 3:1,2 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, (Not manifested to others) that we are the children of God: Romans 8:15,16

    1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
    1 Cor 15:51,52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Is the Spirit filled Christian an embryo of one to be of the adoption?

    that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit. 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; John 3:6,7
    Matt 29:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
    Romans 6:5 & 8 For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again;
    And if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live with him,
    Matt 19:28 Darby And Jesus said to them, Verily I say unto you, That *ye* who have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit down upon his throne of glory, *ye* also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    I removed the comer after, "me," and put it after, "regeneration," because isn't that when they will rule with him?

    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Have they just been regenerated, quickened as in Rom 8:11?
     
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  17. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    Great video . Clear concise and I totally agree . This is the biblical 'predestination ' and the biblical understanding of the 'adoption '. Amen .
     
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  18. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    No, it's not my place to correct you, although in the past I've stepped over that line many times and have inadvertently taken it upon myself to act in that regard.
    For that I do hope that you will forgive me.

    What I will strive to do in the future is to show people who disagree with me on what I see when I read the Scriptures, how and why I believe as I do, and simply leave it at that.
    We can then agree to disagree, or simply agree.
    The Bible says that in many things we offend all, and I've done my fair share of offending the people on this board with some of the things I've written.:(


    For now, I've watched further into the video, and the deeper it goes, the more I differ with you on both the adoption of children ( Ephesians 1:5 ) and the redemption of the body.
    Also, I stand behind my prior posts above and I make these qualifying statements...

    Although the specific words "predestination" / "predestinated" / "predestined" in Scripture never directly refers to salvation, the meaning of the term in English is precisely what is happening for the individual when they were chosen to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ), chosen and caused to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ), given to the Son by the Father before they were ever born ( John 6:37, John 6:64-65, John 17:2, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9:22-24 ), believed the Gospel due to being ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ), that belief in Christ being a gift given to them in the behalf of Christ ( Philippians 1:29 ), belief being a work of God ( John 6:29 ) and having to be "of God" to "hear" God's words ( John 8:43-47 ).

    Their destiny is being decided for them by a God who loved them before the world began ( Ephesians 2:1-6 )...
    As incomprehensible as that may seem to many who read this.

    Salvation of certain people was decided before the foundation of the world when they were chosen "in Christ" ( Ephesians 1:4 ).
    Their names were written in the Book of Life at that point ( Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8 ).
    That group of people ( more than can be numbered ) who were chosen to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ) through ( not because of ) their being sanctified by the Holy Ghost and their belief of the truth.
    In other words, their being sanctified by God's Spirit was not their doing, and the reason they have faith was not their doing.

    It was all of God to give them those gifts.
    That is what makes it all of grace and none of works.

    Finally, I agree that faith is not a work...
    But to make faith the deciding factor in who the Lord grants salvation to, is to make faith into a work that all men can then perform to gain eternal life.
    That is my firm belief and I can in all honesty say that I will never depart from that position, as to me, it violates Romans 4:4 and Romans 11:5-6 and does damage to Ephesians 2:8-9 and Hebrews 12:2.

    Nothing that a person can do will ever result in gaining them God's favor, because we are all dead in our trespasses and sins until He gives us life.
    That life is a spirit to Spirit one, and is always in tandem with salvation from His eternal wrath.

    It is indeed a gift, and not a reward for placing our faith in Him and His Son.


    I wish you well, George.
     
    #18 Dave G, Aug 1, 2020 at 10:35 PM
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020 at 10:44 PM
  19. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    Sorry to butt in here ( hope you dont mind . You said )" Salvation of certain people was decided before the foundation of the world when they were chosen "in Christ" ( Ephesians 1:4 ). ( They were chosen to be Holy and blameless ect . it doesn't say 'chosen to be saved later )
    Their names were written in the Book of Life at that point ( Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8 )."
    why did you say salvation of certain people was decided BEFORE the foundation " when Rev 17 and rev 13 say FROM the foundation. They don't say BEFORE ? Also there are some heavy assumptions going on in the verses you quote above . I can understand The Father loving the Son before the world / foundation . ( John 17 ) because Jesus has never had a beginning . Jesus has always existed with the Father . We have not always existed with the Father . Adam was not existing with the Father before the Foundation of the world either , let alone folks born in 2020 .
     
    #19 Barry Johnson, Aug 2, 2020 at 4:09 AM
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020 at 4:19 AM
  20. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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