According to the Greek, how should it be rendered? pistis = faith
Predestination, what did you do to be predestined for Heaven?
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by The_Narrow_Road, Jan 30, 2003.
Page 2 of 3
-
My goodness how this thread has taken off. My point was if we are predestined for hell or heaven, what did we do to deserve God sending us to either place. Again, I am not Arminian. No, I am not Calvinist either.
What did you do to be predestined for Salvation/Heaven? You did nothing! It is all by God's grace through your faith.
What did Abel do? Abel was saved by God's grace through Abels faith.
What did Abraham do? Abraham was saved by God's grace through Abrahams faith.
What did Noah do? Noah was saved by God's grace through Noahs faith.
What did Cain do to be predestined for hell? Cain was condemned by God's grace through Cains unbelief.
What did Satan do to be predestined for hell? Satan was condemned because of God's grace through Satans unbelief.
What Calvinist lack in understanding is that God doesn't have to save anyone, yet He has made the provision for ALL to be saved. It started in Genesis 3:15 and was completed on the cross. Christ paid the price for ALL sin, yet it isn't counted unto man until man by God's grace believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.
One of you said "Cain was a sinner, as a sinner he is going to hell. God did nothing but let him do exactly what Cain wanted. It was Abels will he violated."
Are we not all sinners destined for hell? All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ALL we like sheep have gone astray. Yes, that sounds like we are ALL predestined for hell because of our sin against a Holy and Righteous God. While we were yet without strength in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
"Satan rebelled against God and tried to assume the position of God. "
All of mankind has done this very thing. But just as Satan had a choice, so to does man. God says in His word "choose you this day whom you will serve." "choose life, that ye might live." By God's grace we have a choice to follow Him or reject Him. But it is ALL by God's grace and our salvation is by His grace through our faith.
God bless you all. This Calvinism/Arminian debating is not edifying the saints and NOT bringing any glory to our Lord.
Kenneth -
You even said "until man by God's grace believes." Yes, that's it. It is by grace that we even believe, so how can it be that God merely made provisions for our salvation when he is the one who "works in us to will and to act according to his good pleasure." It is He who begins a good work in us and it is He that promises to complete that work.
Sam -
Sam </font>[/QUOTE]Please understand that I am not an Arminian "freewillie". I do believe through the word of God that it is all of God period. Yet to say that God has predestined some for hell and some for heaven is unBiblical. He predestines all of us to hell because of the sin of Adam, and our sin. Do you not agree that sin must be punished and the punishment for sin is death? No calvinist is without sin. God has no "favorites". So He does not predestine some to be good, heaven bound. And the others to be bad, hell bound. No Arminian has so much free will that they can walk away from God at any time. I see no logic in either position (Calvinistic/Arminian). We are all guilty before God. How is this reconciled with the "predestination theory of some elected to heaven the rest to hell"? Does God love some more than others?
Again, this debating gives no glory to God what so ever. Look at the division it is causing among the brethren. That shows it is NOT of God. -
1 Cor. 11:19 KJV For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
I like that version better. So which is the herecy, Calvinism or Arminianism? Since I am neither, I have no problem with your answer.
Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all. -
I don't think anyone here would disagree with you that unity is preferable. But IMO elevating unity above truth is not -- unless you're a Unitarian, I guess ;) -
You posted -
I like that version better. So which is the herecy, Calvinism or Arminianism? Since I am neither, I have no problem with your answer.
It still says there must be differences among you. I have a great problem with those who are willing to sacrifice good doctrine for unity. Unity is important, but it should not be more important than proper doctrine. We cannot build the foundation of our life on unity; the foundation of unity is proper doctrine. If we gather around anything, we must gather around something that does not change. That being God. Not who we think God should be, but who God is, and revealed himself to be. I am sick of churches screaming "Unity!" when what they mean is "Universalism!? Forsaking all doctrine does not result in unity, it results in godlessness. It is like taking away the corn and leaving the husk. It sure looks like a god, but it won't feed anyone. -
Oh, and you also posted that -
Yet to say that God has predestined some for hell and some for heaven is unBiblical.
Read Romans 9:22,23, I think it is very biblical. Just because it doesn't cause me to write songs like "Friends are friends forever" and other camp favorites, doesn't make it unbiblical. -
Sturg.
It has nothing to do with compromising the word of God for "peace and unity". Does agreeing with the Calvinist view mean you are genuinely saved? Does agreeing with the Arminian view mean you are genuinely saved? Does not agreeing with either of these views mean one is unsaved? No, I am living proof of that. I hold to neither Arminian nor Calvinist views, yet I am a child of the King, saved by God's grace. That is what I mean, divisions among the brethren based on nonfundamental issues is against Gods will. -
-
The_Narrow_Way,
WHo said on this thread, that if you are not a Clavinist, then you are not saved? It has never been said, or thought by any calvinist I know. The point is that we as Christians are to work out our salvation. We are to discuss issues of theology, and hash them out with the light of scripture. This is the major problem with the SBC. 10% are ultra conservative, 10% are ultra liberal, and the major problem is, 80% of baptist are saying, "Why can't we just forget doctrine so that we can all get along!"
So to say that any debating over scripture is not glorifying to God is so untrue. You might want to check the scriptures for that. -
Much of what Paul wrote in his epistles is reproof regarding bad doctrine, yet one could easily claim that these are not "fundamental" issues because his audience was already saved. So why did God embarrass the whole of Christendom by allowing these books to be published? -
And I never meant to imply that I believed in double predestination. I belive man, without Gods intervening is going to Hell, and if man is in heaven it is because God is gracious. I am sorry if it seemed otherwise. I was just replying to the fact that a poster stated that the idea that God would predestinate anyone for anything is unbiblical.
-
If calvinism is true, then there is no need for missionaries. There is no need for preaching. Right? You are saying that the predestined will end up in that place of God's choosing no matter what. So why preach the gospel of Christ?
If arminianism is true, then there is no need for Christ to have died since He can't keep anyone saved anyway. If you can leave salvation and claim it as you "feel" like it, then what's the point. THere is folly in both teachings.
If one must not adhere to either view, then why all the arguing and disputations? That is a division that has nothing to do with doctrine, but man-made teaching. Calvin was a fallible man and so was Arminius. Don't base your beliefs on a man's thoughts. -
-
Originally posted by sturgman:
God bless youClick to expand... -
Would someone please define how what Calvin or Armenius believed effects an individuals salvation?
For your personal salvation, do you think that God cares one whit whether you believe what Calvin or Arminius believed?
The scriptures tell me that it is whether or not you believe what Jesus, God's only begotten Son says that matters. And Jesus said "whosoever believeth in me shall have eternal life". Seems to me that settles the arguement, but just in case you are not convinced, you can go right on arguing, that is what siblings do best isn't it? -
The difference is as follows.
Arminiansism - Belief, or faith, is an action that results in Salvation.
Calvinism - Belief, or faith is a response that resulted from salvation.
Beleif in God is what saves, but belief, as stated in many of our posts, is from God. Phillipians 1, "it has not only been granted you to believe, butalso to suffer for his sake."
So to answer your other question. Yes I do believe it matters that we believed. -
Originally posted by Yelsew:
For your personal salvation, do you think that God cares one whit whether you believe what Calvin or Arminius believed?Click to expand...
But in general, no, I would not say that God saves a person based on Arminianism or Calvinism, nor do I believe God "unsaves" a person based on either.
Does God care what you believe in this matter not in respect to your salvation? Ask Him. I personally believe He does, and IMO it matters a great deal. My two top reasons for believing this are 1) because so much of the Bible is dedicated to the topic and 2) because IMO one glorifies God more than the other.
Originally posted by Yelsew:
The scriptures tell me that it is whether or not you believe what Jesus, God's only begotten Son says that matters. And Jesus said "whosoever believeth in me shall have eternal life". Seems to me that settles the arguement, but just in case you are not convinced, you can go right on arguing, that is what siblings do best isn't it?Click to expand...
Page 2 of 3