Preordination

[savedbymercy]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I gather from your post in other threads that you seperate the inner man (spiritual man) from the fleshly man. The inner man cannot sin and thus has no freewill at all to sin. So how do you see the fleshly man? Can he sin at (free) will? What I am wondering is if you believe there is any such thing as a free will within a human being.

I already stated, very clearly:

Yes A New Man is Created ! Just as one was born out of corruptible seed, he was born again out of incorruptible seed !

1 Pet 1:23 That which is Flesh, or that birth out of Flesh, is not born again, but an entirely different New Creation is born, and that of God !

There is a Old Man which the elect is by Nature, and then the New Man which He is by Regeneration ! Eph 4:22-24

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

The True Christian is comprised of Two Men, in One Dual Character. He is comprised of a man born out of the flesh, and a Man born of the Spirit, each man born out of respective heads, That they previously existed in One Head Adam, the Other Head being Christ. They were born out of Adam the corruptible seed, and born out of Christ, the incorruptible Seed, the Logos of God !

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1840685#post1840685

 

[The Biblicist]

He has a bigger problem! If the inner man can do no sin and the outer man can do no righteousness then what aspect of our nature is commanded to "put on" the inward man? If the outward man can do no righteousness then it will not "put on" the inward man as that would be a righteous thing.

Who or what aspect of our nature is the "I" in Romans 7:14-25 which delights in the law "AFTER THE INWARD MAN" (obviously is not the inward man) but ends up doing evil???? The same "I" is willing to do good but finds no power to do good (v. 18).

Come on SGM deal with it or recant!

 

[savedbymercy]

Come on SGM deal with it or recant!

You have not disproved anything, Rom 7 affirms all that I have said regarding the make up of a Christian:

I already stated, very clearly:

Yes A New Man is Created ! Just as one was born out of corruptible seed, he was born again out of incorruptible seed !

1 Pet 1:23 That which is Flesh, or that birth out of Flesh, is not born again, but an entirely different New Creation is born, and that of God !

There is a Old Man which the elect is by Nature, and then the New Man which He is by Regeneration ! Eph 4:22-24

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

The True Christian is comprised of Two Men, in One Dual Character. He is comprised of a man born out of the flesh, and a Man born of the Spirit, each man born out of respective heads, That they previously existed in One Head Adam, the Other Head being Christ. They were born out of Adam the corruptible seed, and born out of Christ, the incorruptible Seed, the Logos of God !

Paul in Rom 7 is merely acknowledging the conflict of the Two Different men the Christian is after New Birth.

The Man born out of incorruptible seed, making him the New Man of Eph 4:24

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

That is the man that does this Rom 7:25

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

But with the flesh, what he is by being born out of the corruptible seed adam, he serves the law of sin. He admits that !

So I do not see how you think Rom 7:14-25 supports anything you say, it does not, you are dreaming, dream on !

 

[The Biblicist]

You have not disproved anything, Rom 7 affirms all that I have said regarding the make up of a Christian:

I already stated, very clearly:

Yes A New Man is Created ! Just as one was born out of corruptible seed, he was born again out of incorruptible seed !

1 Pet 1:23 That which is Flesh, or that birth out of Flesh, is not born again, but an entirely different New Creation is born, and that of God !

There is a Old Man which the elect is by Nature, and then the New Man which He is by Regeneration ! Eph 4:22-24

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

The True Christian is comprised of Two Men, in One Dual Character. He is comprised of a man born out of the flesh, and a Man born of the Spirit, each man born out of respective heads, That they previously existed in One Head Adam, the Other Head being Christ. They were born out of Adam the corruptible seed, and born out of Christ, the incorruptible Seed, the Logos of God !

Paul in Rom 7 is merely acknowledging the conflict of the Two Different men the Christian is after New Birth.

The Man born out of incorruptible seed, making him the New Man of Eph 4:24

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

That is the man that does this Rom 7:25

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

But with the flesh, what he is by being born out of the corruptible seed adam, he serves the law of sin. He admits that !

So I do not see how you think Rom 7:14-25 supports anything you say, it does not, you are dreaming, dream on !

You have said nothing to resolve your problem! If the "old" man does nothing but sin and the new man cannot sin then what aspect of the human nature can "put on" and "put off" either??????

The aspect of Paul's nature identified by the personal pronoun "I" repeatedly used throughout Romans 7:14-25 stands in contrast to both the law of sin in the flesh and the inward man as this personal pronoun "I" can both sin and delight in the law or DO BOTH:

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


There is within the constitution of man a conscious self that can DO BOTH! Hence, if the old man cannot do righteousness and the new man cannot do sin then what aspect of the human nature can do BOTH, can put on and can put off.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

You have said nothing to resolve your problem!

Yes I have, and it is no problem. The Christian acts out in Two Different men, One Born of the Flesh and one Born of God !

Thats why Paul can say as the New Man when He sins Rom 7:17

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

It is not him doing it as the New Man Eph 4:24

But it is him doing it as the man of flesh so he says Rom 7:19

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

He is Identifying Two different I"s The one in vs 17 is different from the I in vs 19

The I of vs 17 cannot do the evil of the I of vs 19 ! You understand ?

 

[Yeshua1]

I already stated, very clearly:

Yes A New Man is Created ! Just as one was born out of corruptible seed, he was born again out of incorruptible seed !

1 Pet 1:23 That which is Flesh, or that birth out of Flesh, is not born again, but an entirely different New Creation is born, and that of God !

There is a Old Man which the elect is by Nature, and then the New Man which He is by Regeneration ! Eph 4:22-24

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

The True Christian is comprised of Two Men, in One Dual Character. He is comprised of a man born out of the flesh, and a Man born of the Spirit, each man born out of respective heads, That they previously existed in One Head Adam, the Other Head being Christ. They were born out of Adam the corruptible seed, and born out of Christ, the incorruptible Seed, the Logos of God !

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1840685#post1840685

yes, that occurs when we are born again, at the moment of receiving jesus by faith!

 

[Yeshua1]

we are ALL born as sinners, with just sinful nature in us, 'One man!"

When we place faith in christ, than reborn with a new nature, as the Holy spirit come to indwell us!

ONLY christians have Him in us, was He in you at birth then?

 

[mont974x4]

Ultimately these men obeyed, but what about their sin within their journey to obey? Wasn't that free will disobedience? Or do you suggest God caused that sin within them?

Free will does not exist. The Bible tells us we are slaves to sin until we are saved. It is a lie of the devil that we actually have any control of our own destiny.


God hardened Pharaoh's heart. We see that in Exodus 9, 10 and 11. God sent an evil spirit God sent an evil spirit between Abimelch and Shechem Judges 9. He also sent an evil spirit on Saul in 1 Sam 16.

That said, I would not be so quick to say God made people commit specific acts. We do know that He will enable His children to walk in His ways according to Ez 11 and 36.

 

[Yeshua1]

Free will does not exist. The Bible tells us we are slaves to sin until we are saved. It is a lie of the devil that we actually have any control of our own destiny.


God hardened Pharaoh's heart. We see that in Exodus 9, 10 and 11. God sent an evil spirit God sent an evil spirit between Abimelch and Shechem Judges 9. He also sent an evil spirit on Saul in 1 Sam 16.

That said, I would not be so quick to say God made people commit specific acts. We do know that He will enable His children to walk in His ways according to Ez 11 and 36.

God either determined, or else permitted ALL that happens!

he still requires us to place faith in Christ to be saved!

 

[steaver]

Free will does not exist. The Bible tells us we are slaves to sin until we are saved. It is a lie of the devil that we actually have any control of our own destiny.


God hardened Pharaoh's heart. We see that in Exodus 9, 10 and 11. God sent an evil spirit God sent an evil spirit between Abimelch and Shechem Judges 9. He also sent an evil spirit on Saul in 1 Sam 16.

That said, I would not be so quick to say God made people commit specific acts. We do know that He will enable His children to walk in His ways according to Ez 11 and 36.

If free will does not exist, then who causes the obedience and who causes the disobedience, if the believer has nothing to do with it?

 

[steaver]

I already stated, very clearly:

Yes A New Man is Created ! Just as one was born out of corruptible seed, he was born again out of incorruptible seed !

1 Pet 1:23 That which is Flesh, or that birth out of Flesh, is not born again, but an entirely different New Creation is born, and that of God !

There is a Old Man which the elect is by Nature, and then the New Man which He is by Regeneration ! Eph 4:22-24

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

The True Christian is comprised of Two Men, in One Dual Character. He is comprised of a man born out of the flesh, and a Man born of the Spirit, each man born out of respective heads, That they previously existed in One Head Adam, the Other Head being Christ. They were born out of Adam the corruptible seed, and born out of Christ, the incorruptible Seed, the Logos of God !

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1840685#post1840685

Pardon me SBM, but where did you answer my questions.......

So how do you see the fleshly man? Can he sin at (free) will? What I am wondering is if you believe there is any such thing as a free will within a human being.

 

[savedbymercy]

yes, that occurs when we are born again, at the moment of receiving jesus by faith!

Work Salvation !

 

[savedbymercy]

Pardon me SBM, but where did you answer my questions.......

Will you provide me with a scripture that says man has a freewill ? I have been studying the scriptures for over 30 years and have yet to see one verse that states man has a freewill, or God hath given him a freewill.

 

[steaver]

Will you provide me with a scripture that says man has a freewill ? I have been studying the scriptures for over 30 years and have yet to see one verse that states man has a freewill, or God hath given him a freewill.

Kinda like looking for the scripture that says "Total Depravity" or "Unconditional Election" or "Limited Atonement" or "Irresistable Grace" or "Perserverance of the Saints".

Won't find those phrases in the scriptures, will you?

Since you do not believe believers have a freewill to choose any deeds good or bad, then what will we be judged on at the Judgment Seat of Christ?

 

[savedbymercy]

The Myth of man having a freewill !

Kinda like looking for the scripture that says "Total Depravity" or "Unconditional Election" or "Limited Atonement" or "Irresistable Grace" or "Perserverance of the Saints".

Won't find those phrases in the scriptures, will you?

Since you do not believe believers have a freewill to choose any deeds good or bad, then what will we be judged on at the Judgment Seat of Christ?

There is not a scripture that states that mans will is free, because it is never free from the Sovereignty of God. All wills of men and beast are under the absolute sovereign control of God always doing His will , carrying out His preordained purpose, and yes, they are [men] absolutely accountable for their choices that God ordained they make ! Eph 1:11

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things[mens will] after the counsel of his own will:

 

[savedbymercy]

One of the most misleading things that ever came out of the mouth and mind of the natural mind of men, is that God has given men a freewill. I have been reading, studying, and pondering scripture for well over 30 years now, and not once, have I seen the verse that says God is given men a freewill.

I will be showing by scripture, how that hypothesis is simply not true, and therefore just the reasoning of the natural mind of men.

Lets look first at a scripture of what Jesus said of some:

Jn 8:44

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

First of all, which one of us had the freewill choice to choose who our Father would be ?

 

[The Biblicist]

One of the most misleading things that ever came out of the mouth and mind of the natural mind of men, is that God has given men a freewill. I have been reading, studying, and pondering scripture for well over 30 years now, and not once, have I seen the verse that says God is given men a freewill.

I will be showing by scripture, how that hypothesis is simply not true, and therefore just the reasoning of the natural mind of men.

Lets look first at a scripture of what Jesus said of some:

Jn 8:44

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

First of all, which one of us had the freewill choice to choose who our Father would be ?

Man's will is as free as God's Will in one sense! God's will is not free to lie, to deceive, to do anything contrary to his righteous nature. Nothing restricts man's freedom of choice but his own unrighteous nature and finite limitations. The problem is not the will but the heart of man.

God has an omniopotent, ominisicent, omnipresent nature and so nothing prevents Him from doing what He willeth in heaven and on earth. God's will is only restricted by His own righteous nature and soverign purposes.

Man's will is free to act within his unrighteous nature, limited power, limited knowledge, limited presence. His choices are limited by providential circumstances.

 

[steaver]

There is not a scripture that states that mans will is free, because it is never free from the Sovereignty of God. All wills of men and beast are under the absolute sovereign control of God always doing His will , carrying out His preordained purpose, and yes, they are [men] absolutely accountable for their choices that God ordained they make ! Eph 1:11

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things[mens will] after the counsel of his own will:

According to your pov, if the believer does a good deed it was not a free choice to do the good deed but rather it was God causing the believer to do the good deed. Likewise, if the believer does a bad deed it was not a free choice to do the bad deed but rather it was God causing the believer to do the bad deed. Thus, the believer has nothing in it, according to your theory that the believer has no freedom of choice.

 

[steaver]

One of the most misleading things that ever came out of the mouth and mind of the natural mind of men, is that God has given men a freewill. I have been reading, studying, and pondering scripture for well over 30 years now, and not once, have I seen the verse that says God is given men a freewill.

I will be showing by scripture, how that hypothesis is simply not true, and therefore just the reasoning of the natural mind of men.

Lets look first at a scripture of what Jesus said of some:

Jn 8:44

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

First of all, which one of us had the freewill choice to choose who our Father would be ?

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother". (1 John 3:10)

God said that David was a man after His own heart, yet it is recorded that David had many unrighteousenesses. Murder, adultery, etc.

God said that Abraham was His friend, yet Abraham committed adultery with his maid.

Moses appeared with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration, yet Moses committed unrighteousness and was not permitted to enter into the promised land.

According to your theory, these men were children of the devil for they did the deeds of Satan throughout their lives.

 

[The Biblicist]

According to your pov, if the believer does a good deed it was not a free choice to do the good deed but rather it was God causing the believer to do the good deed. Likewise, if the believer does a bad deed it was not a free choice to do the bad deed but rather it was God causing the believer to do the bad deed. Thus, the believer has nothing in it, according to your theory that the believer has no freedom of choice.

Well stated! There can be no coersive force used by God or else God is to be blamed for all moral evil. Hence, the only coersion of the will must come from within the very nature of man and the nature of God.

Certainly, God determines the providentical choice of circumstances or options and man's will is limited by his finite power to accomplish what he chooses but still the choices are his as he is held responsible on the day of judgment for them.


Man is as free as God is in his deliberations as nothing forces either God or man to choose except their own internal coersions (mind and heart = nature) as the will is not an isolated external entity separated from either the nature of man or God but rather the servant of the mind and heart as you always choose according to your own intellectual and/or emotional internal workings.

The problem with fallen man is not the will as it works just fine but the heart, the fallen nature, the mindset toward sin.