Psuedo-Catholic Protestant Denominations

Ok then it is agreed that because of the statement "Come out of her MY People" in Rev 18 speaking of Babylon (Rev 17-18) - we "should" expect to find "God's People" IN Babylon.

However your point above can only have two options.

#1. While God is clearly calling HIS people OUT of Babylon - God never tells us who Babylon is so basically HIS people can never know if they are IN that system.

#2. God not ONLY warns HIS people to LEAVE Babylon in Rev 18 but He spends quite a bit of time giving distinct identifiers (In Rev 17 and 18) so that they can also know what Babylon is.

If option 1 is true - then we need not worry about the call/warning in Rev 18:1-3 since it is impossible to know what Babylon is in the first place - a clear prerequisite to knowing that you need to leave it.

If alternative #2 is correct - then we need to start listing the clear identifiers given in those two chapters.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ok, I'm curious now . Would you list me these 'clear identifiers' (or give me a link to a list?)

I know that one of them is not "By the way, when I say the Whore of Babylon I am talking about the Roman Catholic Church"

Helen/AITB

 

Jer 3:8-9 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

Ezek 16:14-15 14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.
15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

Ezek 16:28-29 28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.
29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.

Hosea 4:15 15 Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Bethaven, nor swear, The LORD liveth.

During the old covenant, the Lord referred to the nation of Israel as a harlot when she had illicit relationships with her surrounding nations, and their gods. So also, in the new covenant, those who called themselves Christians, but had illicit relationships with the kings of the earth, and their gods are playing the harlot. The Church of Rome is the MOTHER OF HARLOTS, because she was the first " Christian " institution to apostatize and have relations with the kings of the earth, mixing pagan practices and worship with Christianity. This policy she also continues today, thus she is ever present at the UN and has ambassadors from virtually every nation tending to her.

Rev 17:1-2 1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Rev 17:5 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

63. Then came Constantine, the best imperial representative of the new paganism, and the most devout worshiper of the sun as the supreme and universal deity, with the avowed purpose, as expressed in his own words, "First to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity." In Constantine the new paganism met its ideal, and the New Platonism - the apostate, paganized, sun-worshiping form of Christianity - met its long-wished-for instrument. In him the two streams met. In him the aspiration of Elagabalus, the hope of Ammonius Saccas and Clement, of Plotinus and Origen, and the ambition of the perverse-minded, self-exalted bishops, were all realized and accomplished - a new, imperial, and universal religion was created.
64. Therefore, "the reign of Constantine the Great forms one of the epochs in the history of the world. It is the era of the dissolution of the Roman Empire; the commencement, or rather consolidation, of a kind of Eastern despotism, with a new capital, a new patriciate, a new constitution, a new financial system, a new, though as yet imperfect, jurisprudence, and, finally, a new religion." - Milman. 65. The epoch thus formed was the epoch of the papacy; and the new religion thus created was the PAPAL RELIGION. ( THE GREAT EMPIRES OF PROPHECY A. T. Jones )

Constantine brought Sun worshippers, and Christians together, forming a new religion of the two. Although he claimed to become a Christian, he did so for the above purpose, and never claimed to abandon the worship of the sun. The result being the formation of the Church of Rome, and the exaltation of the day of the Sun as the Christian Sabbath.

"In A.D. 321, to please the bishops of the Catholic Church, he issued an edict commanding judges, townspeople, and mechanics to rest on Sunday. Yet in this also his paganism was still manifest, as the edict required rest on "the venerable day of the sun," and "enjoined the observance, or rather forbade the public desecration, of Sunday, not under the name of Sabbatum, or Dies Domini, but under its old astrological and heathen title, Dies Solis, familiar to all his subjects, so that the law was as applicable to the worshipers of Hercules, Apollo, and Mithras, as to the Christians." - Schaff.

"The same tenacious adherence to the ancient god of light has left its trace, even to our own time, on one of the most sacred and universal of Christian institutions. The retention of the old pagan name of "Dies Solis,' or 'Sunday,' for the weekly Christian festival, is in great measure owing to the union of pagan and Christian sentiment with which the first day of the week was recommended by Constantine to his subjects, pagan and Christian alike, as the 'venerable day of the sun.'... It was his mode of harmonizing the discordant religions of the empire under one common institution." - Stanley.

Accordingly, now "his coins bore on the one side the letters of the name of Christ, on the other the figure of the sun-god, and the inscription, 'Sol invictus' (the unconquerable sun), as if he could not bear to relinquish the patronage of the bright luminary which represented to him, as to Augustus and to Julian, his own guardian deity." - Stanley.

The Church of Rome is a political organization. She is that apostate form of Christianity which first forsook the power of the Holy Spirit, in favor of the power of the state, for the furtherance of her goals. These things she accomplished by having adulterous relations with the kings of the earth. She is the MOTHER OF HARLOTS, and as such, of course she has children. Those Protestant denominations which broke away from her, but also leaned on the power of the state to enforce their dogmas, were acting the part of her daughters. It was not until the establishment of the USA, that many Protestant denominations fully broke away from the Romish idea of combining church and state.

"In order to avoid wars and persecutions over religion, the founders of the United States tried a bold experiment. They allowed FREEDOM OF RELIGION by separating church from state, so that one could be a full member of civil society without having to belong to a particular church. Colonies that had established churches gradually ended that practice so that churches were no longer built by the state, nor were their ministers paid by the state. Churches began to rely on the voluntary contributions of their members, which resulted in more vigorous churches." (Groliers)

Any Christian denomination that wants to use the power of the state to enforce or further it's goals, is a daughter of Babylon, the Mother of Harlots. She is the originator of this mind set. Rome, in it's pagan, and papal form, is the fourth metal, and beast of the book of Daniel chapters four,and seven. As the scriptures point out, she will be with us until Christ returns, destroying the kingdoms of this earth and setting up His literal and everlasting kingdom in this world.

Dan 2:33-35 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Rome is rising again, and many Protestant churches are returning to their Mother. These things must happen before Christ returns. The second beast of Revelation will be formed when the worlds religions, headed by the Church of Rome, once again unite with the state on a worldwide basis and use the state to enforce their dogma. This dogma will be the forced worship spoken of in the book of Rev. Chap. thirteen. There is much to say regarding this matter, perhaps more later. I leave you with the following quote.

When Christianity conquered Rome the ecclesiastical structure of the pagan church, the title and vestments of the pontifex maximus, the worship of the Great Mother and a multitude of comforting divinities, the sense of supersensible presences everywhere, the joy or solemnity of old festivals, and the pageantry of immemorial ceremony, passed like maternal blood into the new religion, and captive Rome captured her conqueror. The reins and skill of government were handed down by a dying empire to a virile papacy; the lost power of the broken sword was rewon by the magic of the consoling word; the armies of the state were replaced by the missionaries of the Church moving in all directions along the Roman roads; and the revolted provinces, accepting Christianity, again acknowledged the sovereignty of Rome. Through the long struggles of the Age of Faith the authority of the ancient capital persisted and grew, until in the Renaissance the classic culture seemed to rise from the grave, and the immortal city became once more the center of summit of the world's life and wealth and art. When, in 1936, Rome celebrated the 2689th anniversary of her foundation, she could look back upon the most impressive continuity of government and civilization in the history of mankind. May she rise again.(CAESAR AND CHRIST, A history of Roman Civilization and of Christianity from theri beginnings to A.D.325. By Will Durant-1944)

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Kamaroso, if you look on the following page (in the middle of the page - scroll down to the historical quotes) it has several quotes indicating that Christians worshipped on the eighth day long before Constantine's edict of 321 A.D.

What Day Did Early Christians Worship On?

Helen/AITB

 

AITB, I know that Sunday woship started before the edict by Constantine. It came about gradually, not all at once. The point of the previous post was to show how the chuches relations with the kings of the earth, made her the MOTHER OF HARLETS spoken of in the scriptures. Here are some historical quotes that completely contradict your internet site. Perhaps you should dig a little deeper in your studies.

In the 2nd Century

"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;..therefore the Christians for a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion
of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The
Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416)

"The gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath." Gieseler's Church History, Vol.1,
ch.2, par.30, p.93.

"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and did spend the day
in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice
from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to that purpose."
Dialogues on the Lord's Day. p.189. London: 1701. By Dr. T. H. Morer.(church of England divine)

"The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and
by keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but the command of
Jesus." Geschichte des Sonntags, pp.13,14.

"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the
celebration of the Lord's day by the Christians of the East Church) three hundred years after the Saviour's death." A learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p.77.

In the 3rd Century.

"The seventh-day Sabbath was.. solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive
Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in a manner quite abolish the observation of
it." Dissertation on the Lord's Day,pp.33,34,44.

"As early as A.D.225 their existed large bishoprics or conferences of the church of the
East (Sabbath-keeping) stretching from Palestine to India." Mingana, Early Spread of
Christianity. Vol.10, p.460.

"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the Law, not for idleness of the hands." The Anti-Nicene Fathers, Vol.7, p 413, From Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, A document of the 3rd and 4th centuries.

"After the festival of the unceasing sacrifice [the crucifixion] is put the second festival of the Sabbath, and is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to keep also the festival of the Sabbath. There remaineth therefore a Sabbatismus, that is a keeping of the Sabbath, to the people of God [Heb 4:9]" Homily on Numbers 23, par.4, in Migne, Patrologia Greaca, Vol. 12, cols.749,750.

In the 4th Century.

"It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the
west..For in the church of Millaine [Milan];.. it seemes the Saturday was held in farre esteeme ..Not that the Easterne churches, or any of the rest which observed that day,
were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." History of the Sabbath (original Spelling retained) Part 2, par. 5, pp. 73,74, London: 1636, Dr. Heylyn.

"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day..It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival..Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." Antiquities of the Christian Church, Vol. II, Book XX, chap. 3, Sec. 1, 66.1137, 1138

"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364,
the holy observation of the Jew's Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many
authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it. Sunday a Sabbath, John Ley, p.163 London 1640.

"Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed
Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does,' " Heylyn, The History of the Sabbath, 1613

In the 5th Century.

"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in
the Christian church." Ancient Christianity Exemplified, Lyman Coleman, Ch.26, sec. 2, p.527.

"In Jerome's day (420 A.D.) the devoutest Christians did ordinary work on Sunday."
Treatise of the Sabbath Day. by Dr. White, Lord Bishop of Ely, p.210.

"For although almost all Churches throught the world celebrate the sacred mysteries
[the Lord's Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria
and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." The footnote
which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath" It
says : "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called
'the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and historians." Sacrates, Ecclesiastical History,
Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Very funny.

Notice that in Rev 17 we have seven hills - and Rome was known as "the city of seven hills".

Notice that in the NT prior to this time - Rome was called "Babylon" 1 Peter 5:13 (see the notes in the NIV study Bible for a non-SDA source).

Notice that in James 4:4 an unfaithful church is considered to be in adultery against God. A pure church in compromise. The "Woman" of Rev 12 is in contrast to the adulterous woman of Rev 17. It is church systems - systems of worship being corrupted.

The adulterous concept is that the contract/agreement/covenant-of-faithfulness has been broken.

In Chapter 17 and 18 we see that this church system is merged with the state powers of commerce, power and influence.

It is a persecuting power that specifically targetted the saints.

It is a power addressing God directly - and applying titles/names to itself that God consideres to be blasphemy.

There is a division into 10 kingdoms future to John's day - that is associated with this power.


There are more - but I am out of time for the evening.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Don't forget changing God's Law!

The rest of the world sure hasn't.

 

dear 3AM, Kamoroso, Bob, et. al.

As a Catholic, I receive no amount of comfort from knowing that my Church is profoundly hated by very many well-meaning people.

This past century it has been reviled by modernists, communists, fascists, nazis, atheists,quasi-christian sects, muslims, and even other Christian groups. The day the hatred stops, is the day I begin to doubt my Faith.

So God bless you all. I know you really sincerely believe you are doing God a favor.
Keep up the good work.

raymond

 

Raymond,

None of us hates you, or your church.

We love you. We long to see you free from the chains of falsehood.

So now that you know that there is no hate, will you question what you believe in light of the Bible?

God Bless

 

What you are really saying is you want Catholics to believe your interpertation of scripture. Most Catholics I know are well versed in their Bibles....they just disagree with your understanding of scripture.

Catholics pray for the day that the many denominations see the error of their ways and come home to Rome!


LaRae

 

Which in my case will NEVER be possible because ROME is not my home.

What's so different about YOU and me?

I'll tell you.

"My interpretation" is not based on another man telling me how to interpret it, or even my own understanding. It is based on God's Spirit leading me.

You can pray all you want, but for those of us who's goal is to stay in God's will, we will stay in God's will.

And I can guarantee being in the Catholic Church is NOT God's will for me.

You want to know that you ARE IN TRUTH beyond any shadow of a doubt? Start praying to God that He will send you His Spirit to guide you into ALL truth. Put down your Catechism, and your rosary for just one week. Pick up your Bible, and read it. Do not read commentaries, do not read anything extrabiblical. Just the bible and prayer. You'll be amazed at what happens.

God Bless

 

Which in my case will NEVER be possible because ROME is not my home.

What's so different about YOU and me?

I'll tell you.

"My interpretation" is not based on another man telling me how to interpret it, or even my own understanding. It is based on God's Spirit leading me.

You can pray all you want, but for those of us who's goal is to stay in God's will, we will stay in God's will.

And I can guarantee being in the Catholic Church is NOT God's will for me.

You want to know that you ARE IN TRUTH beyond any shadow of a doubt? Start praying to God that He will send you His Spirit to guide you into ALL truth. Put down your Catechism, and your rosary for just one week. Pick up your Bible, and read it. Do not read commentaries, do not read anything extrabiblical. Just the bible and prayer. You'll be amazed at what happens.

God Bless [/QB][/QUOTE]


How do you know that I ever pray the rosary? You do realize it is not required prayer don't you?

You also like to assume that Catholics don't read their Bible or have any other experience with other denominations (I was not raised Catholic). Catholics don't sit around reading their Catechism day in and day out.

You say it's God's spirit leading you I bet the Baptist down the road thinks the same thing and I am pretty sure Baptists don't agree on some of the SDA definitions of Scripture.

You point out that I follow a man's interpertation....how is that any different than your idea....who says you are lead by the Holy Spirit? Satan can quote scripture too.

Perhaps you will one day see how blinded you are by your own arrogance. I have read your posts all over this forum on various topics and the one thing that comes thru time and time again is your arrogance....not matter who you are talking with.


LaRae

 

John 16 "The Spirit of Truth WILL LEAD YOU into all truth"

1John 2:27 "as for you the annointing which you received from Him ABIDES in you and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as HIS annointing TEACHES you about ALL things and is true... just as it HAS taught you, you abide IN Him"

So yes - it is GOD who obligates HIMSELF to teach us directly through His Holy Spirit "The Spirit of Truth".

But in Mark 7:5-11 we see that the leaders of the "ONE True Church started by God at Sinai with Forever Promises of His Teaching Word AND His Holy Spirit" were teaching Error - "teaching for doctrine the traditions of man".

So today - we too may turn aside from direct instruction by God the Holy Spirit and submit instead to "traditions of man that make void the Word of God" Mark 7:6-12.

In Christ,

Bob

 

LaRae,

I am sorry that you feel that way.

My expression of the knowledge that I have and my fluency of the english language has often come across in my manner of speech as arrogance, but I can guarantee you that it is just the opposite!

The last part of my post was written with a sincere concern and hope for you in your walk with Christ.

I do not assume that you are anything. I do not know you, or your background, and therefore if my suggestions offended you, I apologize because I was not meaning to offend, I was just merely suggesting.

The Word of God promised me that He would send me the Spirit of Truth, and that His Spirit would guide me into ALL truth, if I was willing for Him to do so.

THAT is how I know that I am led of the Spirit, because I have ALLOWED Him to lead me. There is no other proof. THAT is why I suggested that you do the same.

So that you don't JUST take my word for it!

I have NEVER believed something simply because someone told me that I should, and I would never ask someone to do the same. I believe that we should be completely convinced in our own minds of what we believe by earnest prayer and study of the Word of God.

Psalm 119: 162. I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.
163. I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.
164. Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments.
165. Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
166. Lord, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.
167. My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.
168. I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.
169. Let my cry come near before thee, O Lord: give me understanding according to thy word.
170. Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word.
171. My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes.
172. My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
173. Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.
174. I have longed for thy salvation, O Lord; and thy law is my delight.
175. Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.

God Bless