I didn't 'interpret' his statement the way you do. Anyway, you are saying I'm lying when I tell you that I fully embraced the 'Baptist way of salvation' because (I suppose you are saying) if I once truly believed that, I couldn't possibly now believe that salvation includes baptism. I must have made my profession of faith 'with my fingers crossed' as a Baptist. Do I understand you right?
Qualifications for Pastor
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Jun 22, 2010.
Page 4 of 7
-
-
"The Protestant Gospel is one of Faith in the saving power of Jesus. It is one of complete surrender to God's will and power, with nothing else expected or required of the believer.
Does the words "quite accurate" mean "quite accurate"? If this reflects your thinking now, after years of reflection then this must be "quite accurate" in regard to your initial experience.
Saved people can be led into error. You claim you trusted in the truth expressed by the Baptist doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone WITHOUT WORKS, and you are now defending it as the basis of your salvation as a Baptist so either one of two things are true.
1. You initial experience was merely mental acknowledgement of the truth and you are still lost. - I Jn. 2:19
2. You were genuinely saved by what you acknowledge to be a Baptist gospel of justification by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone without works and so you have been led into error to embrace a Catholic Gospel of salvation through sacramentalism which repudiates the Baptist gospel of without sacramentalism.
However, one thing is for certain, the Catholic Gospel is POLAR OPPOSITE to the Baptist Gospel so if you were saved by the first you are now deceived into a false gospel that cannot save anyone as Paul demands there is not "another" true gospel (Gal. 1:6-9). -
If he does not marry another why would the baptist see him as less than blameless?
Does the baptist honor God's law of until death do you part? If yes, then he is still blameless if he has not married another.
Or does the baptist honor man's law of divorce decrees? -
that Sunday school class left me with more questions than answers and soon, the question "What is the Church?", became one of the most important questions I or anyone can ask, AFTER "Who is Jesus Christ?"
for the Church is His (Jesus') Body (Ephesians 1:22-23) and "the pillar and ground of the Truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)...this means to find the Church is to find the fullness of Life and Truth. All other doctrinal issues are downstream of this main issue of the Church...why? because Christ Himself promised to be with His Church until the end of the world and His Holy Spirit will remind His Church of ALL things and the gates of Hell will never prevail, thus the Church which is holy and cannot err in Her teachings and rites, being preserved by the Holy Spirit in all truth...again as Christ promised.
so after 5 years of bouncing around evangelical protestantism, about 8 months of Roman Catholic RCIA, then reading (some of) the Apostolic Church Fathers, Church Fathers, Desert Fathers and numerous other writers. Reading about the Ecumenical Councils and taking a 12 month long Orthodox Catechesis class...I became convinced, as well as the most objective person I had ever known...my wife...that the Orthodox Christian Church was the authentic New Testament Church.
and for the record...my family and I didn't join the Orthodox Church to be "saved"...it was for the reasons i listed above...St. Paul says that we each are to work out our own salvation with both fear and trembling...some choose to do so in the Baptist Church, RCC or any other protestant Church (and yes, we believe the RCC to be the first 'protestants')...only I chose the Orthodox Christian Church.
in XC
- -
in Christ,
Bob -
In XC
- -
I have often attended Southern Baptist and community Baptist churches on Sunday - and always have taken part in communion service with them - even though I make it very clear that I am not a member of their "denomination" but am a Seventh-day Adventist Christian instead. In fact one of the first Southern Baptist churches I attended on several occassions had me teach a Sunday "training" class and a Sunday School class.
however the personal preference of your prior congregation - to the contrary is "noted" ;)
As Baptists often repeat - the priesthood of all believers does not allow them to make the rules of one local congregation - the rules for all.
in Christ,
Bob -
In XC
- -
There are many characteristics of true New Testament Churches but the Great Commission provides the defining characteristics that separate it from all would be pretenders.
1. The gospel
2. Immersion of beleivers in the Triune God
3. Reproduction after its own kind
The true gospel eliminates 80% including Rome and the Orthodox as well as all sacramental, justification by works denominations as potential candidates.
Immersion of professed repentant believers of that gospel eliminate all pedobaptist, regeneration in water, sprinkling, pouring denominations as potential candidates.
Reproduction of like faith and order in organic succession eliminate the rest.
The true churches of Christ were the persecuted "heretics" who left a trail of blood shed by Roman and Reformed Roman Catholic inclusive of the Orthodox church. -
If he is divorced his vows are broken aren't they?
I don't believe in a marriage where the fault lies entirely on one spouse, thus the fault lies on the husband as well, and therefore he is not above reproach or not blameless.
It takes two to tangle, as they say. -
If you have always believed this then how can you be saved?
No Baptist believes this, not in the realm of salvation.
A person's salvation or justification is a one-time event. It is not a process. If you believe it is a process then you are not saved. You probably never were. -
He did not do the breaking and according to what you posted earlier God does not recognize the divorce. In God's eyes he is still married to her.
This is why I asked...
Does the baptist honor God's law of until death do you part? If yes, then is he not still blameless if he has not married another?
Or does the baptist honor man's law of divorce decrees?
Are you passing judgment according to God's "until death do you part" or are you passing judgment by "the state has declared you divorced"?
He did not ask for a divorce nor desire a divorce. Yet you have the man judged guilty even though you previously said God has him still married to her.
You need to take a position of one or the other. God's word on the matter or man's word.
Of course there is no such thing as a perfect spouse. This is off the point. The focus is on the act of divorce itself, fault is irrelevant.
If you want to judge by this standard you propose for being declared "blameless" then you yourself are not blameless since I am sure you have not been a perfect spouse. Don't you see how mixing apples with oranges is showing yourself as disqualified?
Fault and imperfection has nothing to do with this. We are speaking about the very act of divorce itself.
If it is as you say..."His wife (divorced or not) in God's eyes is his wife forever. God does not recognize divorce"...then he is not guilty of divorce and she is not guilty of divorce but rather she is committing adultery. And if he were to marry another he would be committing adultery and they both would be blamed. As it is, he is not in sin and she is. He is not to be blamed for his wifes sins. -
Husbands love your wives even as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it.
Let the wife reverence the husband.
--Was this done? Why not?
Was there any vows broken? yes. Thus the disqualification.
So what was the fault (the reason)? "the hardness of her heart" like the Pharisees? Yes, fault has everything to do with it. That is why Jesus condemned the Pharisees. "From the beginning it was not so."
First, he is responsible for his wife and his marriage to keep it together. If he doesn't the "fault" lies with him. He is the head of his house, even as Adam was the head of his family and was at fault for Eve eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. To Adam the sin was imputed.
Second, God allowed divorce. It is not his perfect will. Man still sins when he divorces. There is not any one-party sin. Both parties sin.
Third, he is not responsible for his wife's sin; but he is responsible for his own sin in the divorce. No man is perfect. He is partly responsible in the break up of this marriage also. This fact cannot be denied. And that is what you are trying to do.
Fourth, you say he is not in sin. You ought to know better. All men are in sin. I have never seen a perfect husband. He was at fault; he played part of the role in that break-up somehow. You may not know how. But he did.
Did he love his wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it? -
You are the one who said...
Which position do you want to take so we can move on from there?
Does God see him divorced or does God see him married? -
Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Because man does "right in his own eyes" does that make it right in God's eyes? That seems to be the position that you are taking.
God does not condone evil of any kind, neither does he condone divorce.
Habakkuk 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?
God does not condone or countenance divorce. He does not recognize it.
It is sin. Therefore a divorced man is not blameless and cannot hold the office of a bishop or pastor. -
If God does not recognize divorce then man's decree of divorce is meaningless to Him and should likewise be to us.
I have two other friends who have wives that had left them, one wife filed for divorce and received it. These two men stayed celibate. Loyal to their vow and consider themselves still married.
They chose to see it as God sees it and you rightly stated, that is, that the paperwork from man changed nothing in the sight of God.
Thus, they stand "blameless" as to their vow of marriage.
You are not grasping the facts of life. There are people who love as Christ loved as much as it is possible for man to do and through no fault of their own are faced with a run away spouse.
You have rightly said that God does not recognize the decrees of man (divorce papers).
So why do you?? Or the baptist church?
The "divorce" is a manmade thing.
These men I know follow God, not man.
They believe God when they believe they are still married and have not broken their vow.
They are "blameless" in this manmade thing called "divorce" in their cases for they have not sought it out. They themselves abhored it, agreeing with God!
Even adultery does not dismiss the vow of marriage. Even then we are commanded to forgive and not repay evil with evil.
You see brother, I believe the marriage vow is for life just as you do, But you are unrighteously applying divorce to both partys, condemning those who had no part in asking for a manmade state divorce from their spouse.
That is just wrong.
You cannot provide biblical proof that God sees both the man and the woman as guilty for every state issued divorce. This is extra biblical, it is just a tradition of the IFB. -
Odd, isn't it, how all these lily-white preachers unwittingly marry women who turn out to be such Jezebels.
-
How does the baptist address new converts who have been dovorced and remarried? Are they also disquailified from being a pastor?
What would you tell them?
"You are a new creature in Christ, old things have passed away, all things have become new for you. Well, except for the divorce thing you did back when you were lost, you still are being blamed for that one. But hey! God has forgiven you all those sins! Even that sin of divorce you did, (but we still judge you as to be blamed, so too bad if you desire to be a pastor)".
You see how this tradition of lumping all into the same "blame" on this divorce issue can cause alot of unbiblical, and quite frankly, ungodly condemnation upon God's children. -
So, as you said, "God does not recognize divorce," end of argument!
Just a couple of weeks ago I had the privilege of marrying two young people. It was before God and man. In other words, not only were there people present physically, there was also paper work to be finished and submitted to the government by law. It is an institution by God and by law.
You advocate that one should copy the Pharisees. I can't believe that you don't want to see the obvious teaching of Jesus.
There is always another side to the story.
What God has joined together let no man put asunder.
How much more Biblical proof do you need.
Divorce is not countenanced by God anywhere in the Bible.
What you are advocating is extra-Biblical if not anti-Biblical. It is against the will of God for a man to be divorced. That is taught from Genesis to Revelation--all the way through Scripture.
Page 4 of 7