You see what I mean you still do not know what you are talking about.
MB
Rapture - The Poll
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Mar 4, 2013.
?
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Pre-Trib
34 vote(s)54.8% -
Mid-Trib
2 vote(s)3.2% -
Post-Trib
9 vote(s)14.5% -
Prewrath
1 vote(s)1.6% -
Partial
0 vote(s)0.0% -
Not sure
1 vote(s)1.6% -
Other answer
15 vote(s)24.2%
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I'm curious of why you went back to this posting from the 12 since you already replied to it once? Doesn't matter.
From Thayer's Lexicon:
Parousia - the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
What I bolded above is particularly amusing since in actuality I only read from the KJV (for convenience). I will often go to other translations online to see what other men of God have rendered the scripture but that isn't in any way a bad thing and actually consistent with the intention of the KJV translators.
And what that proves is that I actually intend to get the full understanding of what the scripture says, not picking and choosing.
Matthew 24:29-31
Mark 13:24-27
Luke 21:25-28
1 Corinthians 15:23
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
Do you have any scripture that plainly states the rapture is before the tribulation? Anything that has no possible alternative interpretation?
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1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The dead rise first. This is what this verse is about. It has nothing to do with any implication of His feet touching the mountain top. This is the first resurrection and gathering of His Saints. After the Judgement of the churches the churches are no longer mentioned. The reason for that is because they are in Heaven being wedded to Christ. The tribulation is not only about the wrath of God but the rule of Satan and his persecution of the people who do not worship him.
1st Cor 15:52
Do you have any scripture that plainly states the rapture is before the tribulation? Anything that has no possible alternative interpretation?
:BangHead:[/QUOTE]
Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
This pictures Christians today being sealed.
Rev_7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Notice it's the children of Israel. I'm a Gentile and a child of God but not of Israel. The only ones saved out of the tribulation are the 144000.
There absolutely no proof this is the church because if it were they would not be called children of Israel.
The fact that the church is not mentioned any longer in Revelations after the warnings to the 7 churches.
The fact that Christ comes in the clouds at the beginning of the book Of Revelations.
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
With out these two things happening the rapture can't happen and they happen before the trib begins.
MB -
That being said, I read only the KJV and love that old Bible. It's a great translation and in my opinion the most accurate. But it isn't perfect. Only the originals were.
And how many resurrections do you think there are? There is the first resurrection at the rapture and the second after the tribulation. That's even standard in dispensationalism.
The fact is that here and in the the parallel accounts of the Olivet Discourse Jesus is talking to Jews yes, but those Jews are followers of Christ, they are the proto-church if you will. These are believers and this discourse is given to believers as a guide for understanding what would happen starting in 70AD going to the Second Advent.
The resurrection of those that are Christ's (Believers in other words) are at His parousia - His visible presence, coming. What's the next verse say? Then cometh the end! Not a pre-trib rapture, but a gathering of Christ's people right before the end.
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.~ 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
Paul says "to you who are troubled" or you who are being persecuted (suffering tribulation) rest with us, because the Lord will be revealed from Heaven and take vengeance on those that do not obey the gospel (those who are doing the persecuting) And When is this? When He shall come to be glorified in his saints! Meaning that He has not been with those saints until this time! Clearly this isn't a return to judge with the church! This is Christ coming to judge and rescue the church! -
Sorry ran out of room on the last post...
Luke 21:27-28
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
The day of redemption is when Jesus returns in power and great glory after the tribulation.
Revelation 7:6 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands
You said yourself that you think this great multitude is the 144,000. So how can they only be Jews if they are from all nations, kindreds (families/tribes), people, and tongues? And again, why is the list of tribes wrong? Here i will quote George Ladd:
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Bosley;
Let's just agree that we disagree and let it go. I've grown tired of discussing what I'm never going to convince you of. Certainly you will never convince me of your view either.
MB -
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