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Featured Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by 1689Dave, Jul 29, 2018.

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  1. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

    "Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

    "Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

    “The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.”

    “Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.”

    “The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.”

    “It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

    Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says the same:

    "One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

    Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack). “That’s Not in the Bible” Gary DeMar

    So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

    If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?
     
  2. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    We all love fictional entertainment, and the Tim and Jerry novels and films are truly fantastic entertainment -
    until you realize that that is what they are -
    Fictitious fantasy.
     
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  3. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I have had Ladd's book "The Blessed Hope" for many years. Dispensationalism is so powerful and so emotional that if you do not believe that eschatology it is best to keep quiet. I think that we have many Christians unprepared to defy the anti-Christ.
     
  4. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Dispensationalism adds to the book of Revelation = big problem.
     
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    That is not what they said.
     
  6. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    They said no scripture supports any of the three tribulation related views.
     
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    No they didn't
     
  8. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    It's in black and white. Also Walvoord's book is tucked away in DTS' library. My quotes come from the library copy.
     
  9. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Saying something is inferred rather than explicit is not the same as saying there is no proof. Covenant Theology certainly uses its own inferences.
     
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  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Exactly, not sure why that needs to be explained.
     
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  11. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I would say that Ladd stands for the post-tribulation rapture. The people who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture are mostly American Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, and Pentecostals. It is one of three or four issues that are difficult to discuss such as is abortion okay in the case of incest or rape? are spiritual gifts given in perpetuity? and I myself would add is the earth only six thousand years old?

    Here is what one Canadian preacher Oswald Smith wrote 90 years ago about the post-tribulation rapture:

    The Rapture – Oswald J Smith | Trumpet Sounds

    The first resurrection is marked thusly:

    Revelation 20:5 (KJV) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
     
  12. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    The point is, none of the tribulation rapture views have direct scriptural support by their own admission.
     
  13. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Well, if we can say that the first resurrection is at the end of the battle of Armageddon and the second resurrection is a thousand years later, we have the time frame of a post-tribulation pre-millennial Blessed Hope. Is it spelled out in the words of the theological debate--no, but as Oswald Smith says, "Recently I got hold of that remarkable book “Tribulation to Glory” by H. A. Baker, in which he wrote: “For eighteen centuries the fundamental principle of tribulation to glory was the universal belief of the truly born-again members of the Church...."
     
  14. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    IF .......
    However John wrote -
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    John saw the souls of the dead faithful reigning with Christ in glory. He then makes the first resurrection general (he that has part); that those resurrected are protected from the second death & that they shall be priests of God & of Christ.

    How can we enjoy the first resurrection & so be protected from the second death, aka hell? Only by salvation by faith in Christ.

    How can we have the position of being priests of God & of Christ? That is the privileged position of all believers - our position! - as John writes in his introduction -
    Rev. 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
    Peter confirms this understanding -
    1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

    Jesus explained the 2 resurrections of soul & body thus -
    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    .....
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    So the clear teaching of our LORD Jesus is of two resurrections, the first being spiritual - conversion & the second being the general resurrection of the body for the final judgment.

    So the dead believers are living & reigning with their Saviour in glory, awaiting resurrection of the body, & final vindication.

    Meanwhile during the 1,000 years ..... Jesus, the Lion-Lamb has triumphed & is delivering Satan's captives by the Gospel. Binding Satan does not change the hearts, intentions etc, of wicked men. (Rev. 22:11a) The Gospel does that, as sinners respond to the call to "come." (Rev. 22:17)

    It should now be clear that the 1,000 years is the present indefinite Gospel age, during which once dead sinners are born of the Spirit & saved from hell. They witness, stand faithfully, & are persecuted, & their souls enter glory in the presence of their Saviour.

    Peter confirms this understanding in his second letter.
    2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

    It is possible that Peter & John discussed this, as Revelation was written to teach & encourage believers who were suffering tribulation at the hands of the ungodly.

    Peter is writing to warn against the scoffers of his day - Jews who knew Jesus prophecy of his coming in clouds to destroy the temple & judge the remnant of this generation who were scoffing against Jesus' prophecy, in effect saying "our fathers are dead, Jerusalem & the temple stand secure. We are living proof of the failure of Jesus as a prophet.
    2 Peter 3:3 knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

    The prophecy of Revelation was given to encourage suffering believers that the prophesied judgments were about to happen.
    Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

    The doctrine of a future millennium, in which things are predicted to happen that are the present experience of believers, amounts to a serious departure from the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles.
     
  15. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    No, the first resurrection is for Christians and Jews saved under the old covenant. The second resurrection is for the non-Christians.

    You mentioned it yourself above: Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    The people in the second resurrection will face the second death.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The point is that neither does the reformed Covenant of Works have within the scriptures expressed directly, but it can be inferred form the total scriptures. That is the same thing that your quoted person is stating concerning the pre trib rapture!
     
  17. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    We cannot honestly say this. What we can safely say is; The resurrection of the Just happens on the last day, followed by the rapture, followed by the resurrection of the wicked, followed but the judgement and explosion of the universe, followed by the new heavens and earth. = no millennium (physical worldly kingdom of sin and death or animal sacrifices).
     
  18. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Both are bogus doctrines.
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Many here would disagree with you on both being bogus...
    Are all doctrines/Theology then only expressly given to us, or are some also inferred?
     
  20. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    I only accept what scripture clearly teaches. Inferred doctrine are just that, inferred doctrines.
     
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