I couldn't disagree more.
While there is some CCM that is sickeningly "pie-in-the-sky-when-I-die", (of course, no less so than a great deal of Southern Gospel) the music of Rich Mullins, Wes King, Randy Stonehill, Bruce Carroll, Charlie Peacock, Jimmy Abegg, Julie Miller, Margaret Becker, Mark Gershmehl & WhiteHeart ("Don't Wait For the Movie" notwithstanding), isn't shallow at all.
It's well thought out and thought provoking to the listener.
Rich Mullins and Wes King have always provided a great deal of scripture references in their liner notes and in some cases, simply comparing the scripture references to the lyrics themselves can be productive as Bible study.
Really? All CCM? The only example I'm aware of is Carman.
Could you please elaborate?
The are a good deal of CCM songs that deal with salvation and many CCM'ers give invitations or invite the pastor of the church to give invitations at their concerts.
I remember being asked to counsel people who had come forward at a Mylon and Broken Heart concert to recieve Christ and being completely overwhelmed by the huge numbers of people.
Again, many CCM'ers have very well thought out and beautiful lyrics.
Again, please provide an example of the false doctrine.
I agree, but then, I've never heard a CCM proponent say that.
While I, personally, don't listen to CCM, other than a few of the afformentioned artists, I'm glad He gave Christians an alternative and that He gave the artists themselves an arena in which to serve Him.
Mike
[ April 14, 2003, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: Mike McK ]
RE: Contemporary Christian Music....
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by ATeenageChristian, Dec 31, 2001.
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It looks like we dogpiled poor JonathanDT, about the "Christ was a rebel" statement. Let's back off just a little and consider that he made the statement in good faith. ;)
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First, I'll have to research this some more. However, without any in depth research, here's why I think what I think.
1. Aaron, I have a hard time believing that the verse you mentioned is condemning ALL rebellion, I think it's specifically talking about rebellion against God. I say this because of the many times that God raised up leaders in the Judges to rebel against the governing nation of the time and to free Israel.
2. re·bel Pronunciation Key (r-bl)
intr.v. re·belled, re·bel·ling, re·bels
To refuse allegiance to and oppose by force an established government or ruling authority.
To resist or defy an authority or a generally accepted convention.
I think that the second definition fits Jesus, as he defied the generally accepted convention of the Pharisees legalistic rule. The Pharisees themselves obviously saw him as a rebel, they tried stoning him at one point, and as you well know eventually had him hung on a tree. While Jesus told his followers to submit to their rule, he himself overthrew them by dying on the cross.
Those are my initial impressions, however I said this merits more study on my part. Thanks!
God Bless,
~JD -
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Originally posted by A Fiery Fundamentalist:
I am glad that, for once, I am debating this with someone who partially agrees with me at all. I do not recall saying that I support Southern Gospel, especially since I do not.Click to expand...
By and large, people who knock rock and CCM are into Southern gospel.
Take the folks on i-love-jesus.com.
They come out and say that they will not allow any disussion of rock or CCM (except to bash it, of course) and one of their moderators, bennieboy (who I think has changed his name to brother ben), follows southern gospel groups with almost cult-like fascination.
In fact, I was banned from the board for daring to demonstrate that his favorite SG groups used the very same studio musicians as Hank Williams, Jr, Jimmy Buffett, Shania Twain, Garth Brooks and a variety of rock and pop/country artists.
Rich Mullins: Many churches still sing his "Awesome God," and many of them also sing also sing the accompanying verses. I thought that the first verse especially was highly disrespectful talking about God ("When he rolls up his sleeves, He ain't just puttin' on the ritz").Click to expand...
Why do you think it was disrespectful?
Wes King: Many of his songs that I have heard have fit into the Gothic card illustration.Click to expand...
I've always found his music to be pleasant acoustic pop and his lyrical content to be scripturally based and well thought out.
Can you name me any CCM songs that would be considered unacceptable to liberals, Pentecostal/Charismatics, etc.Click to expand...
One is that, with only a few exceptions, CCM is entertainment, not ministry, and, as such, is sort of "Christianity-lite".
They subjects they sing about are very tame and not anything controversial that we would disagree with.
I know that, in both my time as a charismatic and working in the production end of Christian music, I've found that it appeals to people fo a wide variety of non-essential ideologies.
If, by "liberal", you and I are thinking of the same people, they tend not to listen to CCM, anyway. However, in very extreme cases, they have changed the words to some of the great hymns of the faith to suit their political ideology.
At least you are the CCM-supporter I have ever debated who did not like Carman's music.Click to expand...
Personally, I believe Carman is what would hapen if Wayne Newtion and Benny Hinn had a baby.
Here is a prime example of false doctrine in CCM using one of CCM's best loved choruses: "Majesty" by Jack Hayford. Here is the particular line I have in mind: "Majesty, kingdom authority flow from his throne unto his own, His anthem raise." Note: KINGDOM AUTHORITY. That is the summation of much of Charismatic falsehood. All authority belongs to God. I am sure that there is no need for me elaborate on the false doctrine of kingdom authority. Especially remember that Jack Hayford is Charismatic and did intend it that way.Click to expand...
Jack Hayford is a biblically orthodox teacher but is heading out of bounds rather quickly.
In the case of "Majesty", though, I think you're reading something in to it that's not there.
As far as your response to my thoughts on "CCM is the only way to reach people these days," were you saying that you agree with me, or were you saying that you agree with them?Click to expand...
I am very surprised that you never came across that kind of statement. Surely you must have heard someone say, "Hymns are well and good for old people (some do not even give hymns that "complement"), but the only way to reach the present generation is with their kind of music,"Click to expand...*snip*Click to expand...
The artists I've worked with have, to the best of my knowledge, been very respectful of the old hymns.
One of Starsongs top selling albums was a various artists compilation of the top CCM artists of the late eighties and early ninties singing hymns.
Julie Miller (when she was doing Christian music), Bruce Carrol, Wayne Watson, Jerome Olds, Jacob's Trouble and many other artists have included hymns on their albums.
Thank you for being the least naive person that I have ever debated the CCM issue with.Click to expand...
Believe me, I've been on every concievable side of this issue and have had nearly fourteen years as a Christian to sort this out.
When I was a young Christian, I was one of those people the Bible talks about being "blown to and fro by every wind of doctrine".
When I first became a Christian, I had this crazy notion that I had to get rid of all of my albums.
Fortunately, I was in a place where I didn't have room for my albums and my sister was holding on to them for me.
Having been through the same thing in the mid-late seventies, she refused to let me throw them out.
Looking back, I glad.
I bought all the books, Jim and Steve Peters, Fletcher A. Brothers, Bob Larson, David Wilkerson, etc.
I was caught up in such a fervor that I didn't even bother to see if they had their facts straight and, sure enough, they didn't.
I finally noticed that they would say things about artists I listened to that I knew weren't true and I always thought it was funny that their books were aimed at kids but talked about artists that no kid in my school would be caught dead listening to and artists that no one who was a teenager in the mid-late eighties would have heard of.
There was a lot of CCM in those days that I listened to and that God used greatly to minister to me and to help me grow.
Then, I backslid for a while and it was the Christian music that God used to convict me.
Today, with the exception of just a few artists, I don't listen to Christian music at all, just mainstream.
I find that there's a lot of mainstream music that God also uses. All mainstream music isn't good and some of it is downright awful and not conducive to growing in Christ, but there is plenty of good music out there, if you're willing to use discernmment.
There's actually a lot more to that story, but I haven't had my coffee yet. :cool:
Here is a parting question: what do you think of POD?Click to expand...
Mike
[Just cleaned up edited portions of Fiery's Post that survived in your quotes. Aaron ]
[ September 26, 2002, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ] -
Fiery,
Are you there? Hello? -
CCM is not a new thing. Think of it this way. Now a days kids and people out there listen to music that is satanic. If people find CCM enjoyable then that's something that takes them away from the examples of "poP music". I know, myself, I had one friend become a Christian because she was introduced into my church through a song taht she really liked. I couldn't get her to come to church, or anything, and one day when I was listening to "Avalon", the song "Adonai" she really liked it. The next Sunday she was at my church without me even knowing she was coming. Three and half months later she asked Christ into her heart. CCM is a different beat of music and frankly, I belive everything and anything has a purpose that God has planned for it. It's not for one to judge...God created CCM on this earth for some reason. Some people believe it is the demon coming out in a different way, but then why would so many people look at it as a positive and Christian look? It's not like AC/DC. I think we all need to look at what Christ-like means, and not judge.
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Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:
[QB]Originally posted by A Fiery Fundamentalist:
By and large, people who knock rock and CCM are into Southern gospel.
*snip* I speak only for myself when I say the following: I knock rock AND CCM, and, GUESS WHAT? I despise Southern Gospel! I worked for quite some time for a Southern Gospel radio station here in Minnesota. I left because I got sick of the *snip* music I was unfortunately playing, as part of my job. I also quit because of the lackadaisical attitude of the hyper-charismatic influence that permeated the radio station/chapel. I can attest, by experience,t hat the radio station I worked at was EXACTLY like secular radio stations, the only difference, was that they spake Jesus' name. they had a prayer request time, and they prioritized the requests. Some requests were for the 'healing' of "beloved" pets, hangnails, the right grocery store to redeems coupons, et al.
I couldn't take it anymore. I was disciplined for reading a section of the Bible on air. And, what do you know, the section i was reading on the air was about redemption. Some listeners called up and complained about me reading the bible during thier precious "feel good, glory-train" music time, and I was told NEVER to read the bible on the air again; that I had to leave that to the programs and the pastor. I was just to announce music, time, weather, Public Service Announcements, etc. this station was a christian music station? PUH-LEEASE. When you can't even read God's Word on the air, IN A "CHRISTIAN" RADIO STATION, it is pretty sad.
Southern Gospel really loves to focus on the "blood", camp meetings, the Glory Train, Beulah Land, and a "Holy Ghost" Party. I didn't hear any songs that stated that we are sinners, that we are not righteous ("no, not ONE".), that we NEED Jesus, that we are inconceivably smaller than God, and so forth. Nope, I heard alot of "pity me for guzzling booze", or " I can't wait to party with Jesus.". Sick, all of it SICK.
Where in the Bible does it EVER tell us to be looking forward to a PARTY? Is heaven just a party place? I have a RIGHT to say what I have said, because I was A PART OF IT! I was "rescued" from it by Jesus Christ. THAT is MY AUTHORITY. I accept no other authority but Jesus.
[Please make your arguments without provocative language. ;)
Your friendly co-moderator,
Aaron]
[ November 03, 2002, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]Click to expand...Click to expand... -
Originally posted by tiggertoddy:
I speak only for myself when I say the following: I knock rock AND CCM, and, GUESS WHAT?Click to expand...
I was disciplined for reading a section of the Bible on air.Click to expand...
Some listeners called up and complained about me reading the bible during thier precious "feel good, glory-train" music time, and I was told NEVER to read the bible on the air again; that I had to leave that to the programs and the pastor.Click to expand...
I was just to announce music, time, weather, Public Service Announcements, etc. this station was a christian music station?Click to expand...
When you can't even read God's Word on the air, IN A "CHRISTIAN" RADIO STATION, it is pretty sad.Click to expand...
I didn't hear any songs that stated that we are sinners, that we are not righteous ("no, not ONE".), that we NEED Jesus, that we are inconceivably smaller than God, and so forth.Click to expand...
I can't wait to party with Jesus.". Sick, all of it SICK.Click to expand...
Where in the Bible does it EVER tell us to be looking forward to a PARTY?Click to expand...
Luke 15:7 tells us that "great joy shall be in Heaven"
There are several OT passages that tell us that the Lord rejoices and "rejoice" carries with it the idea of celebration.
Is heaven just a party place?Click to expand...
Just visiting to clean up an edited portion of the previous post that survived in a quote here.
[ April 14, 2003, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Mike McK ] -
Just wondering what the thoughts are about CREED?
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Just wondering what the thoughts are about CREED?Click to expand...
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite SupporterOriginally posted by Dina:
Just wondering what the thoughts are about CREED?Click to expand... -
I like Lifehouse
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What is the purpose of music for the Christian? Music, as is anything given to man by God, is to glorify and honor God above all else. Means by which this is accomplished are many: evangelization, edification, exhortation, etc.
This many times creates in us a feeling of accomlishment, satisfaction, happiness, joy. But our feelings are not what qualifies or disqualifies good Christian music. It's what that music in and of itself does. Does it glorify God? Does the message AND the music mirror the Word of God?
I'm not going to attack or support any particular artist. One song doesn't make him good or bad. Judge each song for what it is from a BIBLICAL standpoint. Don't call it a bad song because this guy sings it, and this song good because this lady sings it. If we were to judge Mozart's or Beethoven's music for the composer, we'd throw it all out the window.
One thing I will warn you about...stay away from what is classified as "Christian Rock!" There really is no such thing! Music of the Devil cannot go hand-in-hand with Godly lyrics. Interestingly enough, the only persons who claim that music, without the lyrics, is amoral (neither good nor bad), are
Christians who want to justify their listening to "Christian Rock."
Rock artists, producers, and even satanists will admit that it is the music apart from the words that most effectively teaches their philosophy. Here is a URL address for you to take a look at. It is a satanist's view of "Christian Rock."
http://www.geocities.com/athens/9708/CROCK.TXT
Always, as with every aspect of the Christian life, base your decisions, preferences, standards, convictions, and life patterns on the Word of God, and you won't have difficulty "choosing" the right kind of music.
Sincerely,
Christian Lindsey -
CHRISTIAN METAL: A SATANIST'S POINT OF VIEW
BY DANIEL JOHNSONLyrically, you must admit that christian rock and metal are ridiculous and hae little merit.Click to expand...
Why must we "admit that Christian rock and metal are ridiculous and have little merit"?
But, ignoring the senseless word, there is a definite musical wonder found in all metal.Click to expand...
The rythm which makes your heart speed up, the emotional solos which send a shiver down your spine, the
chanting, marching pace which makes your adreniline flow.
It's all there in Chirstian metal, same as any other.Click to expand...
When I rock my infant daughter to sleep, I play Type O Negative's album "October
Rust". Is there a christian alternative? Probably, but as young minds at the border between being awake and asleep are most vulnerable to messages in the subconscious, I don't want to risk the subliminal indoctrination which may occur from playing Christian gothic.Click to expand...
However, with the faster, heavier music, it's different. On our way to political rallies, my friends and I always take the long way around, cruising the streets with Rage Against The Machine, White Zombie, Deicide or Bad Religion blasting over the car stereo, to get our nerves ready for the chaos of a near riot.Click to expand...
Rock and Roll, which got it's name from a black slang term for sex in the back of a car,Click to expand...is derived from a combination of blues and voodoo ceremonial rythms.Click to expand...
Christian music has always historically lacked rythmClick to expand...
If it lacks "rythm" then why is it sinful, as it's supposed to be the "rthym" that stirs up the flesh?
anything that stirs up emotion of
any kind is considered sinful.Click to expand...
Jazz, and R&B, the earlier bases of rock, metal, gothic, punk, death metal, industrial, country rock and rock itself have always been synonymous with decadence, atheism, Satanism and social protest.Click to expand...
This is because of it's voodoo roots.Click to expand...
Some say that voodoo is a christian
denomination,Click to expand...
If the lyrics are ignored, christian rock fills this purpose of voodoo spiritual posession just as easily.Click to expand...
Take Black Sabbath for example. Long considered the epitome of Satanic rock. If you
read the lyrics to "Lord Of This World", "War Pigs", and "After Forever" you see that the
message is obviously christian.Click to expand...
*snip*
Take any Christian metal band of today and put them in the same time and place, and
they would be in the exact same position Black Sabbath is in now.Click to expand...
I could sing a song about loving Jesus, and still there would be many people in the
audience with their hands thrust up in the air to show the sign of the horns.Click to expand...
You see this sign a lot but your average concert goer has no more clue what it means than can make sense out of this guy's rambling essay.
This sign is no more indicative of Satanism than somebody wearing a cross around their neck is a Christian.
The rythm of christian rock will summon Baron Samedi all the same, as the death god
awaits his spiced rum sacrifice from those of us who conjure him.Click to expand...
So, pick up a copy of the christian metal magazine "Heaven's Metal" and look up the
newest of the Satanic rock bands!
HAIL CHRISTIAN ROCK! A TRUE WOLF IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING!
HAIL SATANClick to expand...
[ November 16, 2002, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ] -
Originally posted by Christian A. Lindsey:
Rock artists, producers, and even satanists will admit that it is the music apart from the words that most effectively teaches their philosophy. Here is a URL address for you to take a look at. It is a satanist's view of "Christian Rock."Click to expand...
Mike
[ April 09, 2003, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Mike McK ] -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite SupporterOriginally posted by Christian A. Lindsey:
What is the purpose of music for the Christian? Music, as is anything given to man by God, is to glorify and honor God above all else. Means by which this is accomplished are many: evangelization, edification, exhortation, etc.
This many times creates in us a feeling of accomlishment, satisfaction, happiness, joy. But our feelings are not what qualifies or disqualifies good Christian music. It's what that music in and of itself does. Does it glorify God?Click to expand...
Does the message AND the music mirror the Word of God?Click to expand...
I'm not going to attack or support any particular artist. One song doesn't make him good or bad. Judge each song for what it is from a BIBLICAL standpoint. Don't call it a bad song because this guy sings it, and this song good because this lady sings it. If we were to judge Mozart's or Beethoven's music for the composer, we'd throw it all out the window.Click to expand...
One thing I will warn you about...stay away from what is classified as "Christian Rock!" There really is no such thing!Click to expand...
Music of the Devil cannot go hand-in-hand with Godly lyrics.Click to expand...
Interestingly enough, the only persons who claim that music, without the lyrics, is amoral (neither good nor bad), are Christians who want to justify their listening to "Christian Rock."Click to expand...
Rock artists, producers, and even satanists will admit that it is the music apart from the words that most effectively teaches their philosophy.Click to expand...
Here is a URL address for you to take a look at. It is a satanist's view of "Christian Rock."
http://www.geocities.com/athens/9708/CROCK.TXTClick to expand...
1.) The "satanist" needs to learn to spell and type.
2.) I really doubt that this person is a "satanist"
3.) If he truly is a satanist, why should I believe a word he says? If he is the enemy of God, why would I believe that he would tell the truth about something in the Christian community? If anything, the fact that he speaks against Christian rock is probably the best endorsement of Christian rock that you could get.
Always, as with every aspect of the Christian life, base your decisions, preferences, standards, convictions, and life patterns on the Word of God, and you won't have difficulty "choosing" the right kind of music.Click to expand...
I will not sin if I choose my music carefully. -
Christian A. Lindsey said:
I'm not going to attack or support any particular artist.
No, you're just going to lob a cluster bomb and get them all with one shot.
One thing I will warn you about...stay away from what is classified as "Christian Rock!" There really is no such thing! Music of the Devil cannot go hand-in-hand with Godly lyrics.
That rock music, per se, is "Music of the Devil" is your unsupported assumption, nothing more.
Your link brought me to: "CHRISTIAN METAL: A SATANIST'S POINT OF VIEW." So it's come to this: going to Satanists to tell us what Christians ought to do. In straining out the gnat of "worldly" music, its critics have swallowed the camel of worldly thought. Rom. 12:1-2 would seem to apply.
[ November 15, 2002, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Ransom ] -
Clarification,
Any encyclopedia article on rock music will say that rock music has its roots in African music. Dig a little deeper and you will find that African rhythms are all about Voodoo.
There is no dispute on that fact all. The dispute is whether those rhythms can transfer to Christian music. Until recently, the resounding answer of the church was no. -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite SupporterOriginally posted by Aaron:
Clarification,
Any encyclopedia article on rock music will say that rock music has its roots in African music. Dig a little deeper and you will find that African rhythms are all about Voodoo.
There is no dispute on that fact all. The dispute is whether those rhythms can transfer to Christian music. Until recently, the resounding answer of the church was no.Click to expand...
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