Recently Published NT Translation

[McCree79]

Yet another off topic, you, you and you post. Obfuscation on display. I am waiting for you to address why the same construction in Revelation 17:8 was not translated the same way. But no answer will be forthcoming. My dispute is not with John, apo means from, after or since, not before.

Address the Greek. Modern English transaltions are full of words used different ways in different places. Even the NASB.

Απο can mean more than you listed. As it indicates a separation of time or space. You acknowledge that it can mean "after". Well if it can mean after, that mean the verb can give it a "before meaning". Απο has no tense. So what gives it the past tense when it is rendered "after"?

Even Strongs acknowledges it can mean "before". Before fits the given definition provided by the BDAG and Mounce Lexicon's

So again. What is the relationship of γέγραπται and ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου. Explain how the perfect tense verb would effect the preposition. This is the key to translating απο. This is not obfuscation. You are being asked to read the text. To say reading the text is obfuscation, is to accuse John of obfuscation.

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[Van]

Yet another dodge, was Rev. 17:8 addressed? Nope. How do you explain why the NASB, NIV, NET, NKJV and LEB translated apo as from or since in both Rev. 13:8 and 17:8?

I will repeat, "apo" never means before. Ask yourself why an earlier version of the NIV had before at Rev 13:8 and then subsequently changed it to from? You are wasting everyone's time.

 

[McCree79]

Yet another dodge, was Rev. 17:8 addressed? Nope. How do you explain why the NASB, NIV, NET, NKJV and LEB translated apo as from or since in both Rev. 13:8 and 17:8?

I will repeat, "apo" never means before. Ask yourself why an earlier version of the NIV had before at Rev 13:8 and then subsequently changed it to from? You are wasting everyone's time.

Do I have ESV transaltors notes for 17:8. Nope. Do you? Nope. You accuse me of dodging......answer the question the is relevant to 13:8 and 17:8.

What is the relationship to γέγραπται to ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου?

You need to stop pretending like γέγραπται is not there. You are looking at απο void of context.

What gives you the right to limit γέγραπται definition provided by BDAG and Mounce Lexicon's? You even disagree with Strongs. So, can you explain how one determines what word to use for απο? A word which has the definition of indicating a speration in time or space. A hint, cherry picking words from a gloss isn't the answer.

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[McCree79]

I am will try saying it another way.


Απο is the preposition governing καταβολῆς κόσμου. Απο indicates a speration of time or space from that which it is govenring. Απο comes with a sense of "out of" or a "away from", So that mean the foundation of the world is "ground zero". This separation indicates that the names found in the book were placed there before or after the foundation of the world. Did that writing take place before or after? The perfect tense of γέγραπται indicates before. The perfect tense also indicates the writing is complete. It also indicates its effects are still being felt.

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[Yeshua1]

We are to study God's word and share. Unless do not believe in the priesthood of believers?

I do, but was just suggesting that you are not qualified to be able to sit in judgement upon why any of the bible teams translated as they did the Esv/Csb etc!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another misrepresentation of my view. Yet another claim of mind reading. Yet another post addressing me and not the topic.

So you have never said that Strongs was the best-and primary Greek tool to use for definitions?

 

[Yeshua1]

Do I have ESV transaltors notes for 17:8. Nope. Do you? Nope. You accuse me of dodging......answer the question the is relevant to 13:8 and 17:8.

What is the relationship to γέγραπται to ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου?

You need to stop pretending like γέγραπται is not there. You are looking at απο void of context.

What gives you the right to limit γέγραπται definition provided by BDAG and Mounce Lexicon's? You even disagree with Strongs. So, can you explain how one determines what word to use for απο? A word which has the definition of indicating a speration in time or space. A hint, cherry picking words from a gloss isn't the answer.

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I just have a hard time seeing how Van can be this self appointed expert on bible translation, and yet knows no Greek/Hebrew!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another example of non-comprehension. If there was any actual support for before, why did the ESV use from at Revelation 17:8. You have no answer, your assertion is bogus.

Do you understand what he was saying here though?

 

[Van]

You need to stop pretending like γέγραπται is not there. You are looking at απο void of context.

Unless and until you agree the same word is in Rev. 17:8 and the ESV translates apo as from, you are dodging.
All you are doing is arguing for an obvious falsehood.

 

[McCree79]

Unless and until you agree the same word is in Rev. 17:8 and the ESV translates apo as from, you are dodging.
All you are doing is arguing for an obvious falsehood.

I addressed that in post 37. Twice since then you accused me of dodging. So I guess it is you dealing in false hood.

What is the relationship of γέγραπται and ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου? Απο shows us a speration in time. Where the names written in the book before, after, during the foundation of the world? γέγραπται answers that clearly. The ESV seems justified by the Greek. I have explained the function of the perfect tense several times.

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[Van]

I give up! Mr McCree has joined the ranks of others who are willing to post absurdity to prevent discussion of scripture.

Here is the simple truth folks, the RSV included the butchered (agenda driven) translation of Rev. 13:8. Now the NRSV fixed the problem, translating "apo" correctly as from. But the ESV, based on the RSV, simply copy and pasted the egregious error into its version.

8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

8 and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered.

 

[McCree79]

I give up! Mr McCree has joined the ranks of others who are willing to post absurdity to prevent discussion of scripture.

I am trying to talk Scripture. You are refusing to deal with it.

What is the relationship of the perfect tense γέγραπται with ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου? Over and over and over I have tried to get you to engage Scripture.

Απο is the preposition governing καταβολής κόσμου (foundation of the world). It is linking the gentive καταβολῆς κόσμου to the book that contains the names. We know when the names were written in relation to the foundation of the earth. It is "before". Απο has no tense. It is being determined by the verb. The perfect tense γέγραπται indicates the names were written in the past, the writing is complete and still has a present effect.


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[Van]

I just have a hard time seeing how Van can be this self appointed expert on bible translation, and yet knows no Greek/Hebrew!

Smear, smear, smear. Your personal incredulity demonstrates your non-comprehension. Did I say I was an expert? Nope, but you made the claim, so you post falsehoods non-stop.

 

[Van]

I am trying to talk Scripture. You are refusing to deal with it.

You have dodged it. If "the relationship of the perfect tense γέγραπται with ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου" had any application to the choice of translating "apo" why did the ESV translate "apo" as before in Rev. 13:8 but "from" in Rev. 17:8. You are simply posting obvious falsehoods to disrupt and derail discussion.

 

[McCree79]

You have dodged it. If "the relationship of the perfect tense γέγραπται with ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου" had any application to the choice of translating "apo" why did the ESV translate "apo" as before in Rev. 13:8 but "from" in Rev. 17:8. You are simply posting obvious falsehoods to disrupt and derail discussion.

Your unwillingness to engage the Scripture is telling. Deal with the Greek, not English.

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[McCree79]

You have dodged it.

Right....You keep telling yourself that.


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[Yeshua1]

Your unwillingness to engage the Scripture is telling. Deal with the Greek, not English.

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hard to do that when one does not know the Koine Greek.

 

[Yeshua1]

You have dodged it. If "the relationship of the perfect tense γέγραπται with ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου" had any application to the choice of translating "apo" why did the ESV translate "apo" as before in Rev. 13:8 but "from" in Rev. 17:8. You are simply posting obvious falsehoods to disrupt and derail discussion.

he actually seems to be asking you why they chose to translate in a way that you would not have.

 

[Van]

Folks, the ESV butchered its translation of Rev. 13:8. Nothing in Greek grammar allows anyone to correctly translate "apo" as before. The whole claim is a fiction, an absurdity, and yet not one of the well educated posters have stood up for the truth. If "the relationship of the perfect tense γέγραπται with ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου" had any application to the choice of translating "apo" why did the ESV translate "apo" as before in Rev. 13:8 but "from" in Rev. 17:8.

 

[Van]

he actually seems to be asking you why they chose to translate in a way that you would not have.

You mean in a way the NASB does not translate it? Or in a way the LEB does not translate it. Or in a way the NKJV does not translate it. Or in a way the CSB does not translate it. Or in a way the NET does not translate it. Can you explain why the NIV changed Rev. 13:8 which originally was translated "before the foundation" to "from the foundation?" Can you explain why the NRSV corrected the RSV translation of Rev. 13:8 to read from, rather than before?