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Featured Regeneration before faith can it be proven?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by MB, Oct 25, 2019.

  1. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    So basically you're hard hardheaded and refuse to read and interpret the text even in the YLT and you are still being triggered by the word "sovereign".
     
  2. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    You make a huge leap in logic.

    God is the one who gave the authoritative "yes" to allow human rebellion to take place. God could have said "no", in which case paradise would still exist.
    Nowhere does God tell us why He said "yes" to the rebellion.
    We know that God has chosen to show zero grace to fallen angels. Their judgment is sure. For humans, God has chosen a select group to whom He will extend grace and His just wrath falls on Jesus.
    So, God is in no way responsible for my rebellion. God is the authority who said "yes" humans can rebel.

    I'm sorry you cannot grasp God's Sovereignty and Supremacy.
     
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  3. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Show me where God ever said yes to human rebellion?. Show me where God has chosen a select few to show His Grace?
    How Can God not be responsible when you admit it was God who gave His authority to rebel. I believe you have just made God a accomplice in all sin. Not only that you have nothing but your word to back it up.How would you testify against God?
    MB
     
  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Whoopee I'm triggered just because you say so! hehehehehehehehehehehehe
    Your right though I am hard headed when it comes to people who think they have all the answers and don't. It seems to me Calvinist can be so blasted ignorant of the truth when it's staring them in the face. Are you being blinded by the light?
    MB
     
  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    " Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" ( James 2:5 ).

    Rich men bypassed in favor of the poor.
    God chooses to bestow His grace on the poor of this world, and not to all men.

    He has chosen the poor of this world to be rich, in faith.
    He has chosen the poor of this world to be heirs of the kingdom...which He has promised to them that love Him.

    Why do the poor of this world, who are rich in faith, love Him?
    Because He first loved them ( 1 John 4:19 ).

    " For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called:]
    27 but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
    28 and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
    29 that no flesh should glory in his presence.
    30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
    31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
    ( 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 ).

    "because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." ( Matthew 7:14 ).


    Scripture, understood as a composite and in its proper context, shows that very thing, MB.
     
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  6. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    He created man and allowed him to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil...letting Adam and Eve have their free will choice to disobey Him.

    So...are you holding God responsible for standing back and letting Adam and Eve sin?
    Please allow me to lay all this out in writing, so I can stand back and look at it, MB.

    To me, you object to God not letting man have His free will choice to be saved ( when none of us would ever seek Him, anyway ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 )), and then object when the Bible states that it was man's free will that got us all into trouble in the first place ( Genesis 3:1-7 ), and keeps us in our constant state of rebellion that God has to bail us out of, in order to save any of us...

    I'm not sure whether to be amazed, or confused, sir.
    How does that work, again?

    God was an accomplice in mankind's sin, when He point-blank says that He is not ( James 1:13-15 )?
     
    #86 Dave G, Oct 31, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
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  7. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Do you not read the Bible? My goodness your question seems silly to me.
    Jacob...grace.
    Esau...no grace.
    Moses...grace
    Pharoah...no grace
    Peter...grace
    Judas...no grace

    All the above were wicked sinners. God never caused them to sin. He did allow them to sin.

    Here is a great passage where we see God give a "yes" to Satan.

    Job 1:6-12 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

    Job 2:1-6 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the Lord. And the Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life. But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.”

    Despite your objections, God does what He wills and your complaints are empty.

    See how God raises up the wicked Chaldeans. God does what He wills.

    Habakkuk 1:5-11 “Look among the nations, and see; wonder and be astounded. For I am doing a work in your days that you would not believe if told. For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, who march through the breadth of the earth, to seize dwellings not their own. They are dreaded and fearsome; their justice and dignity go forth from themselves. Their horses are swifter than leopards, more fierce than the evening wolves; their horsemen press proudly on. Their horsemen come from afar; they fly like an eagle swift to devour. They all come for violence, all their faces forward. They gather captives like sand. At kings they scoff, and at rulers they laugh. They laugh at every fortress, for they pile up earth and take it. Then they sweep by like the wind and go on, guilty men, whose own might is their god!”

    What is Habakkuk's response?

    Habakkuk 3:16-18 I hear, and my body trembles; my lips quiver at the sound; rottenness enters into my bones; my legs tremble beneath me. Yet I will quietly wait for the day of trouble to come upon people who invade us. Though the fig tree should not blossom, nor fruit be on the vines, the produce of the olive fail and the fields yield no food, the flock be cut off from the fold and there be no herd in the stalls, yet I will rejoice in the Lord; I will take joy in the God of my salvation.

    My goodness, I do not understand your bitterness.
     
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  8. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Think of it this way -- Nothing is outside God's control. He has the power to wipe out the entire universe in a fraction of a second and create a universe 100 times as vast in the same moment.

    If God absolutely wanted to prevent all possibility of something occurring, it wouldn't even be an inconvenience for him to ensure that the event would never, ever occur.

    He is the only Lord of all creation, all space, all time, all glory, all honor, and all power. Not even the smallest subatomic particle can exist apart from his willingness to permit its existence. All things are subject to him, without exception.

    This same God--the one true God--has no equal. Even Satan and his demons are able to operate only because of God's decision to permit them to rebel. He could easily destroy every creature of darkness in an instant.

    And this same God owes us absolutely no explanation whatsoever for his decision making (see the book of Job and Romans 9, for example). Furthermore, where he has revealed his will to us, we are only able to comprehend what we can understand of his will because he gives us the ability to do so.

    I'm not saying we won't have questions, but God is under no obligation to answer any of them. He is the High King to whom all must submit, the one for whom "every knee will bow."

    How would he testify against God? I doubt he would even have the inclination to do so.

    Whenever we realize that our awe-inspiring, unequalled, infinitely holy God not only was under no obligation to save anyone but also sent his Son to bear the sins of his people, it gives us pause.

    Whenever we realize that Christ accomplished this by enduring the most horrific act of all time--the execution of the Son, the only one ever to be executed who was without any sin-- and that he did so willingly, it gives us pause.

    Whenever we realize that this horrific sin was the chosen means through which Christ obtained salvation for his people, it gives us pause.

    God doesn't owe us an explanation for why he permits rebellion, regardless of its length or severity, and because of our limited ability to comprehend, we may not be able to make sense of weighty matters.

    But even if he doesn't provide an explanation, what he does provide is a glimpse into his overwhelming power and glory.

    Any of us can testify to God's glory, but none of us has even a minuscule basis for testifying against him.
     
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  9. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    No one.
    That's what His word says..

    Who can testify against Him?

    " Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
    ( Romans 9:19-24 ).
     
    #89 Dave G, Oct 31, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
  10. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    That no where says man's spirit is/was dead. It says the man is/was dead. It says the very same as this: For as in Adam all die, and this, Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    It says this: YLT and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'


    The man not the spirit, The spirit returns to God who gave it.
     
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  11. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Contrast this: Ephesians 2:1-3

    And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

    With this: Ephesians 2:4-5

    But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

    Can a dead man hear?

    We give God the glory. He chose to make us alive when we were dead.
     
  12. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Romans 9-11
     
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  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Gen 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
    Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

    Chosen for two nations this is cooperate. Not a Choosing for Salvation.
    MB
     
  14. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Um, I gave two whole chapters of Romans....
     
  15. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    My answer then is Romans the whole book other wise you have taken it out of text. No matter which portion I post you claim it's out of text. Your are like the child who is bound and determined to get what you want. I don't want you to throw a fit so read the whole book in context.
    MB
     
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You really don't know how this works do you?
     
  17. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Seems not.
     
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  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    One thing for certain you are wasting your breath. Read the book of Romans and then read the chapter of Gen. 25. You won't do it because you are convinced you already know it all. The choosing of Jacob was a choosing of a nation not any particular individual.
    MB
     
  19. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    A few things.

    1. I find it absolutely hilarious that you are telling me to not just read a few verses back but to go to a whole other book of the Bible considering you want to focus on John 12:32 and not just back up a few verses for context there. Too rich!
    2. I have read the whole book of Romans. I have also read the whole book of Genesis. I have even read Malachi where the Romans 9 passage is quoted from. A nation was coming from Jacob, yes, and Esau, yes. But before nations, there were the individuals. And if you read the context of Romans 9 you see clearly Paul is talking about individuals. You cannot dispute this.
    3. Furthermore, we know Paul in the 3 chapters that I gave you is not talking about nations. He is talking about individuals? How do I know? Because he then starts talking about Israel (what you want to call Jacob) specifically. He chooses some out of Israel and not others. This is clear in chapter 11.
     
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  20. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Before I answer this you need to read 2nd peter 1:10
    2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
    We need to make our calling and election sure. Calvinist believe it to never fails to give them Salvation.If this were true then you wouldn't have to make it sure
    You asked me to read the whole chapter and it made no difference. John 12:32 still says what it says in or out of text This is what you can't deal with

    You are kidding that I can't dispute your claims. Do you think your self to be in charge? hehehehehe. The fact that Paul speaks some about them does not support your view. It's still a cooperate choosing of a people for God's purposes. They are called God's chosen people not individuals. It was not an election to Salvation. Scripture does not say that, it was. This is assumed by Calvinist.
    .
    This also is clear;
    Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    None of it is individual. and not once is this choosing for Salvation. The inclusion of the Gentiles was not specific as individuals but as a whole. Read it again because when you get to the parts that make it cooperate the light blinds you to the facts.
    The end of chapter 11 is definitly not speaking about individuals.
    Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
    Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
    Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
    MB
     
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