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Regeneration ---- Then Faith
- Thread starter tnelson
- Start date
Yelsew2,
That never troubled me for a second!
Regeneration is good news for dead sinners. Without it, sinners remain spiritually lifeless and forever doomed. Man is in such a desperate condition that without a radical change of heart, he has no hope. His best efforts at reforming his character is folly and amounts to nothing in the attainment of spiritual life. Man's spiritual death and inability are answered by God's gracious provision in the atoning death of His Son,the Lord Jesus Christ. And it is only because of Christ and together with Christ that dead sinners can live. Together with Christ, we can experience new life in the gospel.
Brutus,
Sinners who continue to sin are not spiritually dead...YET!. They haven't been cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death which is the death of spirit.
So, that in itself contradicts your belief that All mankind is spiritually dead and totally depraved. "All have sinned" is not the same thing as "All are totally depraved and incapable of anything but sin".
Sinners who continue to sin are not spiritually dead...YET!. They haven't been cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death which is the death of spirit.
So, that in itself contradicts your belief that All mankind is spiritually dead and totally depraved. "All have sinned" is not the same thing as "All are totally depraved and incapable of anything but sin".
What is the nature of the second death? It is a continual dying, continual dread, fear, torment and all the images the grave must bring to those unsaved.
It is not an end but will be an eternal condition.
The spiritual death of man means he can not respond to the call to believe and repent. It is not comparable to a cessation of life. this is because the Grace of God sustains life through his mercy.
Bro. Dallas
It is not an end but will be an eternal condition.
The spiritual death of man means he can not respond to the call to believe and repent. It is not comparable to a cessation of life. this is because the Grace of God sustains life through his mercy.
Bro. Dallas
yelsew: by ourselves we are all as bad off as we can possibly be.That is, we all have sinned,Rom.3:23, and by our sin we deserve the punishment of God against sin, which is condemnation,Rom.6:23. Yet, moreover, sin has so affected us that, left to ourselves, we will always continue on sinning and never, never look to God for salvation, Jn.3:19-20,6:44; Rom.3:11.
Now clearly, if a man is a sinner deserving of condemnation and will never "seek God" and His mercy, then he is obviously as bad off as he can possibly be. Left to himself he will continue on his way to hell. And that is what is meant by total depravity.
Now clearly, if a man is a sinner deserving of condemnation and will never "seek God" and His mercy, then he is obviously as bad off as he can possibly be. Left to himself he will continue on his way to hell. And that is what is meant by total depravity.
Yelsew,
Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:25-30)
I think we learn a few very important things from this passage:
1. God sovereignly gives Christ the sheep.
2. People believe in Christ because they are sheep.
3. People listen to and follow Christ because they are sheep.
The free-willist argument of people becoming sheep (Christians) because they listen, because they follow, and because they believe is directly contradicted by these verses in the Word of God. Now instead of appealing to mystery and then going off in the direction of humanism, you need to take a look at these verses. And please do it prayerfully.
Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:25-30)
I think we learn a few very important things from this passage:
1. God sovereignly gives Christ the sheep.
2. People believe in Christ because they are sheep.
3. People listen to and follow Christ because they are sheep.
The free-willist argument of people becoming sheep (Christians) because they listen, because they follow, and because they believe is directly contradicted by these verses in the Word of God. Now instead of appealing to mystery and then going off in the direction of humanism, you need to take a look at these verses. And please do it prayerfully.
"Normal" scenario says that writing names in "the book" is what "clerks" do in accordance with a standing requirement established higher authority.
There are scriptures relative to names in the book of life and there are scriptures relative to being blotted from the book of life. Someone does the writing, someone does the blotting, you figure out the who and why! I did the study many years ago, it's your turn. </font>[/QUOTE]Dear Yelsew,
I am looking for references to a 'clerk'. The Bible teaches that names written in the Lamb's Book of Life are written there by God. This means there is no 'clerk' but that God in His sovereignty completes this task.
the Bible also teaches there are several books that will be opened on judgement day (regardless of your view and mine of the end times, this is true). Among these books is found The Lamb's Book of Life and also the book of life. One is for all the saved from all of time, the other is a record of all who are descendant from Adam.
Have you ever wondered why Matthew opens by stating the generations of Jesus Christ? And John takes us back to eternity?
Don't confuse these two books of life.
Bro Dallas
Ray Berrian
New Member
'The Baptist Confession of Faith says concerning
regeneration that this effectual call is of God's free and
special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in
man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being
wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses,
until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is
thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the
grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power
than that which raised up Christ from the dead. Baptist
Confession,chapter 10, section 2.'
This kind of a confession came from Augustine who was more than well-endowed with the philosophical teachings of Socrates and Aristotle. He mixed philosophy with theology and came up with sheer determinism. John Calvin, freshly out of Catholicism rubber-stamped the Augustinian quasi-theology and systematized it for Calvinistic churches to spiritually consume. The above suggestion as to Christian doctrine is also blended with non-Christian ideas like Almighty God is a Divine Automaton Who autocratically selects some sinners for Hell and the rest who are fortunate enough to march in the parade of the elect.
Augustine portrayed the true God of the Bible as an uncaring Being who has been emasculated of Personhood unlike what the Word of God documents in John 3:16 and I Timothy 2:6, and many, many other passage of the New and Old Testaments.
The closer we view the scholastic background of men like Augustine, we then can better understand that he was greatly influenced by Aristotelian and Socratic philosophy as to the god of the universe. The God of the Bible is not the created being, 'god' that these two philosophers believed him to be.
The Greek styled god was Being and not the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. He could not have any direct contact with this world due to its becoming and change. This also meant that he is inaccessible, not subject to any emotions or feelings. Augustine evolved in his philosophy and mixed it with some Biblical theology and produced the true God Who is just a pleased to damn the majority of humanity and to save the lesser amount of people called, the elect. [Matt. 6:14]
The true God ' . . . commands all men {people} everywhere to repent.' [Acts 17:30] Why? Because His love is so great toward sinners that it is not His pleasure to damn one soul in Hell. [John 3:16]
The god of Aristotle and Socrates made the world by an inferior deity from preexistent matter. This is clearly not the Lord our God.
One thing about Catholicism is that they have evolved away from the error of their Catholic theologian, St. Augustine, toward -the true God who loves every living soul. Regretfully, some Protestant, and non-Catholic denominations are still masticating the Catholicism of the Dark Ages, collated by a theologian who mixed philosophy with Christian truth.
Once you study Augustine you will be able to push to the side of your plate the 'spoiled food' suggested by Aristotle and Socrates, via Augustine, via John {the sovereign} Calvin. (ist).
Is the Lord our God unfeeling and negligent toward the majority of sinners? Does the true God have respect of persons? [Romans 2:11] Is He the God of injustice? [Deuteronomy 10:17]
Faith in Jesus first; then He regenerates the respondent.
regeneration that this effectual call is of God's free and
special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in
man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being
wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses,
until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is
thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the
grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power
than that which raised up Christ from the dead. Baptist
Confession,chapter 10, section 2.'
This kind of a confession came from Augustine who was more than well-endowed with the philosophical teachings of Socrates and Aristotle. He mixed philosophy with theology and came up with sheer determinism. John Calvin, freshly out of Catholicism rubber-stamped the Augustinian quasi-theology and systematized it for Calvinistic churches to spiritually consume. The above suggestion as to Christian doctrine is also blended with non-Christian ideas like Almighty God is a Divine Automaton Who autocratically selects some sinners for Hell and the rest who are fortunate enough to march in the parade of the elect.
Augustine portrayed the true God of the Bible as an uncaring Being who has been emasculated of Personhood unlike what the Word of God documents in John 3:16 and I Timothy 2:6, and many, many other passage of the New and Old Testaments.
The closer we view the scholastic background of men like Augustine, we then can better understand that he was greatly influenced by Aristotelian and Socratic philosophy as to the god of the universe. The God of the Bible is not the created being, 'god' that these two philosophers believed him to be.
The Greek styled god was Being and not the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. He could not have any direct contact with this world due to its becoming and change. This also meant that he is inaccessible, not subject to any emotions or feelings. Augustine evolved in his philosophy and mixed it with some Biblical theology and produced the true God Who is just a pleased to damn the majority of humanity and to save the lesser amount of people called, the elect. [Matt. 6:14]
The true God ' . . . commands all men {people} everywhere to repent.' [Acts 17:30] Why? Because His love is so great toward sinners that it is not His pleasure to damn one soul in Hell. [John 3:16]
The god of Aristotle and Socrates made the world by an inferior deity from preexistent matter. This is clearly not the Lord our God.
One thing about Catholicism is that they have evolved away from the error of their Catholic theologian, St. Augustine, toward -the true God who loves every living soul. Regretfully, some Protestant, and non-Catholic denominations are still masticating the Catholicism of the Dark Ages, collated by a theologian who mixed philosophy with Christian truth.
Once you study Augustine you will be able to push to the side of your plate the 'spoiled food' suggested by Aristotle and Socrates, via Augustine, via John {the sovereign} Calvin. (ist).
Is the Lord our God unfeeling and negligent toward the majority of sinners? Does the true God have respect of persons? [Romans 2:11] Is He the God of injustice? [Deuteronomy 10:17]
Faith in Jesus first; then He regenerates the respondent.
Dear Brother Ray,
I have provided a link below concerning Augustine. Please visit it at your convenience and see the nature of his errors. Read the sections beginning on this page related to Augustine, at least three pages, until you come to his disagreements with Pelagius.
May God Bless you dear Brother.
Bro. Dallas Eaton
Departure from the Spiritual power in salvation
I have provided a link below concerning Augustine. Please visit it at your convenience and see the nature of his errors. Read the sections beginning on this page related to Augustine, at least three pages, until you come to his disagreements with Pelagius.
May God Bless you dear Brother.
Bro. Dallas Eaton
Departure from the Spiritual power in salvation
"Normal" scenario says that writing names in "the book" is what "clerks" do in accordance with a standing requirement established higher authority.
There are scriptures relative to names in the book of life and there are scriptures relative to being blotted from the book of life. Someone does the writing, someone does the blotting, you figure out the who and why! I did the study many years ago, it's your turn. </font>[/QUOTE]Dear Yelsew,
I am looking for references to a 'clerk'. The Bible teaches that names written in the Lamb's Book of Life are written there by God. This means there is no 'clerk' but that God in His sovereignty completes this task.
the Bible also teaches there are several books that will be opened on judgement day (regardless of your view and mine of the end times, this is true). Among these books is found The Lamb's Book of Life and also the book of life. One is for all the saved from all of time, the other is a record of all who are descendant from Adam.
Have you ever wondered why Matthew opens by stating the generations of Jesus Christ? And John takes us back to eternity?
Don't confuse these two books of life.
Bro Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]I've got news for you sir. Corporate chairmen do not write the names of their employees in the enrollment books, Yet they are credited for and held responsible to see that they are written or scrubbed.
Pastors of churches of sufficient size do not do the writing and blotting of names of their church members.
You seem to think that God has nothing better to do than keep track of names. What are the remaining two thirds of all the angels that God had doing?
CEOs, Pastors, etc. have people who do the clerk work under their authority.
Two books of Life? Does it matter, both have clerks writing in and blotting out per instruction from God!
God is sovereign, he alone writes the names of the elect in the Lamb's Book of Life. He has sent His only begotten Son into the world, and He sends the Spirit of His Son into the heart of the elect.
He operates in this and does not delegate it to any other being, only the Godhead is eternal, the angels are created beings and subject to the ability to sin as is proved in Lucifer. Why would God leave to these the writing of the names of the eternally saved in His Book of Life?
He would not.
He operates in this and does not delegate it to any other being, only the Godhead is eternal, the angels are created beings and subject to the ability to sin as is proved in Lucifer. Why would God leave to these the writing of the names of the eternally saved in His Book of Life?
He would not.
Then what say you of the Angelic beings who control the four winds? Is God the one holding the winds or is God the executive that directs the four? Tell me God does not delegate?
What about the Angel Gabriel that visited the virgin Mary in preparation for the power of the most high to conceive His son in her womb? Did he do that because he wanted to or was it delegated unto him to do so?
What about the great fish that swallowed Jonah, did it act of its own accord or was it delegated to "collect Jonah, hold him for 3 days, then deposit him on the beach near Nineveh?
God don't delegate? Who do you think the prophets are if not delegates of God to his Chosen people? See why I keep saying you do not think things through?
What about the Angel Gabriel that visited the virgin Mary in preparation for the power of the most high to conceive His son in her womb? Did he do that because he wanted to or was it delegated unto him to do so?
What about the great fish that swallowed Jonah, did it act of its own accord or was it delegated to "collect Jonah, hold him for 3 days, then deposit him on the beach near Nineveh?
God don't delegate? Who do you think the prophets are if not delegates of God to his Chosen people? See why I keep saying you do not think things through?
I suppose that Jonah's preaching in Nineveh, did not arouse fear of God among the Ninevites and cause them to repent. If God did it all, then WHY JONAH? If God does it all, why did Jesus command his disciples to Go into all the world making disciples? If God did it all there would be nothing for a believer to do to work out his/her own salvation, as Peter and James instruct us.
See you are LOCKED UP in your false doctrine of the "elect", IGNORING the "rest of the story". And you cannot stand to hear the truth because you continually ignore the truth!
You fail to think things through because of the self installed "blinders" you have on.
Salvation is through FAITH, while God's grace prevails. FAITH cometh by HEARING, and HEARING by the Word of God, which in modern terms is the Bible written by 40 men, compiled by who knows how many more men. A book which from cover to cover reveals God's plan of salvation for man, not just some nebulous "elect" comprised of some out of all.
If faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, and you are making that dependent upon reading the word, or hearing the preacher, then why do you deny the full inspiration of the word of God?
In your view, salvation is meted out to folks based on the fact they agree with you or the preacher or witness you associate with leading you to Christ.
How can you reconcile what is the word of God that is needed when you cannot even declare that word to be completely the word of God but filtered through the bias of men.
You sound as if any moment you could regurgitate the denial of Karl Marx and tell me that religion is the opiate of the people in order that the upper class can remain in power by the promise of a future reward in another world.
Yelsew, you are dangerous, or perhaps better, dangerously inconsistent in your belief. I first thought it was in how you express your belief, but now I am not even sure what you believe.
you continually say faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God but you don't even know what that means or requires of the word of God and at the same time because of your misunderstanding of that you apply a filter through the mind of the writers on the authority of the Holy Spirit in recording Scripture.
Bro. Dallas Eaton
In your view, salvation is meted out to folks based on the fact they agree with you or the preacher or witness you associate with leading you to Christ.
How can you reconcile what is the word of God that is needed when you cannot even declare that word to be completely the word of God but filtered through the bias of men.
You sound as if any moment you could regurgitate the denial of Karl Marx and tell me that religion is the opiate of the people in order that the upper class can remain in power by the promise of a future reward in another world.
Yelsew, you are dangerous, or perhaps better, dangerously inconsistent in your belief. I first thought it was in how you express your belief, but now I am not even sure what you believe.
you continually say faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God but you don't even know what that means or requires of the word of God and at the same time because of your misunderstanding of that you apply a filter through the mind of the writers on the authority of the Holy Spirit in recording Scripture.
Bro. Dallas Eaton