Regeneration ---- Then Faith

[BrotherJoe]

Hi again Brother Mike

YOU: So weather we are saved or not isn't up to us.


ME: Yes, that is what the Bible says.

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Romans 9:16)

Who does the choosing in this next passage, and whose will is responsible for eternal salvation and when was it done?
"According as HE HATH CHOSEN US in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of HIS WILL" (Ephesians 1:4-5)

That passage, and many others in scriptures say we were adopted, in adoption doesnt the parents choose to adopt and not the other way around?

The gospel of John states, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD."( John 1:12-13, emphasis mine)

Brother Mike did you have any choice in being born the first time into this world? If not, why do you think it any different with your second birth?

Saved wholly by grace,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Mike,

YOU (QUOTED): So weather we are saved or not isn't up to us. Then I would assume that there is no need for me to even worry about it at all. I'll either be saved or I won't be

ME: Brother Mike , do you think more people would go to heaven if it were up to God or up to man? Would you rather have your eternal destiny in God's hand or your own?

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Mike,

YOU: (QUOTED ON YOUR BELIEF IF CALVINISM IS TRUE):Either way I'm not responsible for my sins because God made me the way I am. It's His fault that I sin.


ME: This is a faulty arguement against predestination that St. Paul already responded to in Romans.

"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory" (Romans 9:18-23)

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Skandelon,

SCRIPTURE UNDER DISCUSION:1)" the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God...the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:11,and 14)

YOU ON THE ABOVE PASSAGE:If you go back and read the entire context you will clearly see that Paul is speaking about knowing and understanding the "deep things of God," not the gospel


ME: Here are verses from the 1 and 2nd chapter preceeding it, I hope after reading them you too will believe Paul is referring to the gospel in 1 Cor 2, not some deep hard to understand wisdom:

1)"18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the pruden" (1 Corinthians 1:18-19)

2)" But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God (1 Cor 1:23-24)

3) "30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." (1 Cor 1:30-31)


4) "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." (1 Cor 2:1-2)

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Skandelon,

Hello.

PASSAGE UNDER DISCUSSION:"the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Romans 8:7)

YOU: We don't believe man can submit to the law. The law was fulfilled by Christ for that very reason. He subjected himself to the law in our place and we recieve him through FAITH. This verse says nothing about Faith or man's inability to believe the gospel message.

ME: Yes, it does. God gave a law for us to repent and believe. To have faith is a law of God according to the Bible.

"By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith." (Romans 3:27)

God commands us to repent and believe. That is a law from God. You yourself admit man cannot obey God's law. Think about it.

Brother Joe

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by BrotherJoe:

PASSAGE UNDER DISCUSSION:"the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Romans 8:7)

YOU: We don't believe man can submit to the law. The law was fulfilled by Christ for that very reason. He subjected himself to the law in our place and we recieve him through FAITH. This verse says nothing about Faith or man's inability to believe the gospel message.

ME: Yes, it does. God gave a law for us to repent and believe. To have faith is a law of God according to the Bible.

"By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith." (Romans 3:27)

God commands us to repent and believe. That is a law from God. You yourself admit man cannot obey God's law. Think about it.

Brother Joe

But Paul is not refering to the "Law of faith" as you suggest. The context (especially verse 3 and 4) shows us that Paul in this passage is speaking of man's inability to fulfill the "requirements of the law."

Think about it Paul speaks of the Jews who did not obtain righteousness because the "pursued it as if it were by the works of the law" but the Gentiles did obtain it because they "pursued it by faith." You are trying to equate faith with works by teaching that man couldn't obtain it by pursuing it by either means. They can't by works, they CAN by faith.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by BrotherJoe:
Here are verses from the 1 and 2nd chapter preceeding it, I hope after reading them you too will believe Paul is referring to the gospel in 1 Cor 2, not some deep hard to understand wisdom:

1)"18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the pruden" (1 Corinthians 1:18-19)

2)" But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God (1 Cor 1:23-24)

3) "30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." (1 Cor 1:30-31)


4) "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." (1 Cor 2:1-2)

Instead of picking the verses out as proof texts why don't we look at the entire context as it is in the text:

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal.

Notice the bold words. He is clearly speaking about the "deep things of God" and even the "brethern" were NOT able to receive it because of their immaturity in the faith. You can't ignore the context.

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Skandelon,

YOU: So are you saying that if the flesh didn't influence us we would be dead to sin, meaning "unable to sin?"

ME: If believers did not have their sinful flesh bodies they would be unable to sin. The saints in heaven do not sin, why not??

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Skandelon,

Hello, hope everything is well.

YOU (QUOTED): You are trying to equate faith with works by teaching that man couldn't obtain it by pursuing it by either means. They can't by works, they CAN by faith.


ME: Brother S., we will both agree (correct me if Im wrong) that salvation is not of works. Were we part is when you assert that faith is not a work. Faith is a work! Now before you tune me out, please allow me a moment to argue my position. I say faith is a work for 2 reasons

1) Scripture teaches, " faith cometh by hearing."(Romans 10:17) Now, is having to hear something a work? At first thought you may respond no, but think about it. Hearing something is a verb, an action performed by man. It also takes time. DO NOT COMPANIES PAY THEIR EMPLOYEES TOP DOLLAR TO GO TO CONSULTING SEMINARS TO HEAR VALUABLE INFORMATION? THIS IS PART OF THE EMPLOYEES WORK, they are even getting paid to do it! If one honestly looks at the matter, they must conclude faith is therefore a work because one has to take time, attention, and obedience to a hearing.

2) The other reason, and main reason that I believe faith is a work is because scripture teaches it is. Please examine the following verses:
"Remembering without ceasing your WORK OF FAITH" (1 Thes 1:3)

"that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power" (2 Thes 1:11)

Grace is not a work (see Romans 11:6), because it is God working in another. God gives man the faith to believe, this is why in the gospel of John, when Jesus is asked by men, " What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (John 6:28-29)

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

PS Please note that my caps are used for emphasis, I am not yelling. Quite honestly, I enjoy discussing the Word of God and these issues with a brother in Christ.

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Skandelon,

YOU:Instead of picking the verses out as proof texts why don't we look at the entire context as it is in the text:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.


ME: Brother, you started the verse off at verse 10 which states, "But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. " Well what is the "them" in verse 10? To find out we need the preceeding verses 1-9 right?

Here are verses 1-9 (that you did not post)
"1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 FOR I DETERMINDED NOT TO KNOW ANYTHING AMONG YOU , SAVE JESUS CHRIST, AND HIM CRUCIFIED.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."


*******************Vereses 7 and 8 define the "WISDOM" spoken of in the latter part of chapter 2, the deep wisdom.************** Please read verse 7 and 8 below:*******************

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor 2:7-8)

Verses 7 and 8 are speaking of the hidden mystery of salvation, kept secret till the time, but now made manifest, salvation by Christ crucified! What else can 1 Cor 2:7 be referring to when it states " we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:" ( Cor 2:7) What did he ordain before the world? Scripture tells us,"the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8).

Remember Paul declared of his gospel, "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (Romans 16:25-26).

The deep hidden wisdom mystery spoken of that the naural man cant recieve is apparent- Christ crucified (i.e. the gospel.)


Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by BrotherJoe:
Brother Skandelon,

YOU: So are you saying that if the flesh didn't influence us we would be dead to sin, meaning "unable to sin?"

ME: If believers did not have their sinful flesh bodies they would be unable to sin.

I agree with you. If the flesh were not a factor we would be unable to sin. Yet Paul still regards Christians as "dead to sin." In the same way Paul calls the lost "dead in sin" and if the Spirit were not a factor we would be unable to believe. Right? See the parallel. Without the fleshly influences we would be unable to sin and without the Spiritual influences we would be unable to believe. Can we all agree with this?

Ok, now what is the means God has chosen to "influence" mankind to faith? The Holy Spirit wrought Gospel message. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. And the Word is brought to us by the Spirit. Now, go back to the text and show me where it says the gospel is not enough of a spiritual influence to produce faith in mankind.

 

[Skandelon]

In regard to your post concerning faith being a work let me respond.

It doesn't matter how you define faith. What matters is how the authors of the text defined it. Paul didn't equate faith as a work of the law. He set them in opposition to each other. So even if I concede to you that faith is a work of man, it is not "the works of the Law" to which Paul refered.

In the OT, the works of the law were required.
In the NT, faith is required.

To say that they are the same undermines Paul clear intent. Don't you believe we should pursue righteousness by faith?

 

[Skandelon]

As to your post concerning I Cor:

I started in verse 10 because that is where he transitions from talking about the gospel to the "deep things of God." And I agree with the fact that we cannot even fully understand the simple gospel until we place our faith in Christ and the Spirit indwells us, but this passage doesn't tell us the critera for gaining the Spirit. Gal. 3:14 does, its "through faith."

BTW, its quite revealing that you continue to ignore the fact that just a few verses following your proof text Paul speaks of the "bretherns" inability to receive these things either. I don't see how you think this is in regard to the natural man's inability to believe and be saved, afterall he does call them brethern despite their inability to receive it.

 

[matt721]

I believe that, in our frail humanity (Isaiah 55:8-9) we try to impose logical constructs upon God's word; we like to put ourselves (and try to put God) into neat little boxes with file folders and labels on each one. For example, the question has been posed of whether regeneration proceeds faith or faith proceeds regeneration. Right away we assume that it has to be one or the other! And then we sit around and pick the thing apart until there's no more life in it. We make non-central things a litmus test for who's saved and who's not. Is this really our job? (Matt.7:1-5,16) Only if you selectively believe that certain passages from scripture supersede other ones.

Do we need the answers to such questions to be able to contend for the faith? Many folks have placed Paul's writings into such a rigid structure based on their own philosophy. Apparently, it was a problem for the 1st century Christians too (2 Pet.3:16-18). What did he have to say (or, rather, what did God have to say through him) about it?

1 Corinthians 2:4-5
"My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power."

1 Tim. 2:14
"Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen."

Or maybe we need the answers for the sake of Christian living?
Col. 2:1-8
"I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is."

"So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ."

From this passage, what is being talked about?
Paul had indeed been struggling, putting his very life into the ministry (v.1).

To what end?
So that they would have a fullness of understanding of Christ, and their faith would be characterized by a certain sense of order--that it would be well-established.

Why? (What would this accomplish?)
So Christian believers would not be led astray by false doctrines.

How? (What was instrumental in achieving this knowledge?)
Believers who were encouraged in heart and united in love (v.2).

How was this worked out?
By continuing to live in him (v.6).

So Paul's action point was Christian living, which worked itself out in believers being encouraged and united in love.

Maybe the answer to the question should be "both". Why decompose our relationship with God through Jesus Christ into constituent parts, when it is given to us in scripture as a complete entity? As the vine and the branches in John 15:1-17. Eph.2:21, 4:15.

Some more verses:

"Seek the LORD while he may be found;
call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD , and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon." Isaiah 55:6-7

"And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said,
among the survivors whom the LORD calls." Joel 2:32

"I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved." John 10:9

"They replied, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–you and your household.' " Acts 16:31

But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Rom.10:6-13

All who enter through Him will be saved! We know what is required of us. Why get caught up in the mechanism of what happens when?

My brief answer is "both".

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
In regard to your post concerning faith being a work let me respond.

It doesn't matter how you define faith. What matters is how the authors of the text defined it. Paul didn't equate faith as a work of the law. He set them in opposition to each other. So even if I concede to you that faith is a work of man, it is not "the works of the Law" to which Paul refered.

In the OT, the works of the law were required.
In the NT, faith is required.

To say that they are the same undermines Paul clear intent. Don't you believe we should pursue righteousness by faith?

Was anyone ever justified by the works of the law? the law never saved anyone, while they are busy fulfilling one they break another.

To what did the works of the law point? to the fact of the above statement and the need of God's Grace to provide the ability to overcome the above truth.

The sacrifices? what did they foreshadow? the sacrifice of Christ, the fact that God promised to provide himself a sacrifice. A Jew bringing a sacrifice on the day of atonement looked forward to the coming of the messiah who would combine the Priesthood and the sacrifice and reign as king.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Skandelon]

I agree Dallas.

 

[Frogman]

I am glad we can agree in this at least.

Bro. Dallas

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Skandelon,

Good day and sorry for my slow reply. I enjoy posting on here, but its hard to keep up with everything! lol

YOU (QUOTED):Without the fleshly influences we would be unable to sin and without the Spiritual influences we would be unable to believe. Can we all agree with this?

ME: I agree with you. Scripture teaches that without the Holy Spirit's overpowering grace no man would be able to believe. As the Gospel of John states, "No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him... (John 6:44)

YOU (QUOTED):Ok, now what is the means God has chosen to "influence" mankind to faith? The Holy Spirit wrought Gospel message... Faith comes by hearing the word of God. And the Word is brought to us by the Spirit. Now, go back to the text and show me where it says the gospel is not enough of a spiritual influence to produce faith in mankind.


ME: There is no question none can have faith in the gospel until they first hear the gospel. Romans states "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

However, the idea that we produce the faith by ourselves after hearing the gospel goes against scripture. Ephesians 2:8 states we are, "saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

If the gospel produces faith, then all who hear the gospel would believe it, but clearly this isnt the case, correct? Why do some people have faith in the preached word of God and others dont? Because God has to grant the burdened sinner "eyes to see and ears to hear." Remember the Jews in Moses's day, they had Moses preaching them the very word of God, yet they had no faith. Why not? Scripture tells us why, "Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day." (see Deut 29:4)

Why did you respond to the gospel message in faith and yet your neighbor sitting in the pew next to you may not have? Surely it isnt because you are any better than he is. No, its because the Holy Spirit had already quickend your heart. Only one who already is a child of God CAN AND WILL respond in faith to the gospel. This is what Jesus taught, "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. BUT YE BELIEVE NOT, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP, as I said unto you. MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, AND THEY FOLLOW ME" (John 10:25-27)

God bless,

Brother Joe

PS- Lord willing I hope to get replies back to your prior posts shortly...im falling a bit behind lol! Have a good weekend and a good service on Sunday.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by BrotherJoe:
However, the idea that we produce the faith by ourselves after hearing the gospel goes against scripture. Ephesians 2:8 states we are, "saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

We don't produce the faith by ourselves. The gospel produces the faith within us. The truth will set you free.

If the gospel produces faith, then all who hear the gospel would believe it, but clearly this isnt the case, correct?

Incorrect. The gospel produces what is needed for faith. It produces truth. It is man who must choose whether or not to acknowledge what he knows to be true or to reject it. Read back through Romans 1 and you will see that the people knew God. The "clearly saw and understood" the divine attributes and eternal nature of God, but THEY REFUSED TO ACKNOWLEDGE HIM AS GOD. They knew the truth. They had everything they needed to believe, which is why Paul said they were without excuse. It is the same here. You want to remove the two critera Paul lays out for mankind to stand without an excuse by saying they can't understand or clearly see. But with the gospel they can. They choose not to. This is what Hebrews warns us against when it say, "Do not let your hearts grow hardened."

Let me explain it this way. Have you ever heard of someone with cancer just avoiding the issue. They avoid treatment because of the pain and cost. They rationalize and lie to themselves so much that they may even begin to believe the lie. That is what hardening is like. People who have heard the gospel know the truth. They understood it and clearly saw it for what it is, truth. But they lie to themselves, they avoid it because they like the sin too much and eventually their hearts become hard which is why they stand justly condemned. If you try and say they could NOT understand the gospel or see the truth of it then according to Paul's reasoning you have just given them a perfect defense on that day of judgement.

Why do some people have faith in the preached word of God and others dont? Because God has to grant the burdened sinner "eyes to see and ears to hear." Remember the Jews in Moses's day, they had Moses preaching them the very word of God, yet they had no faith. Why not? Scripture tells us why, "Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day." (see Deut 29:4)

These are passages in reference to the hardened Jews, who were hardened temporarily and for a divine purpose, but the Gentiles will listen (Acts 28:28) Don't apply passages having to do with a unique group of people at a particular to time to a doctrine of the nature of all men. It doesn't work.

Why did you respond to the gospel message in faith and yet your neighbor sitting in the pew next to you may not have? Surely it isnt because you are any better than he is.

No, its because he is worse than I am. I'm not better, he is worse. He had the truth and refused to acknowledge it as truth. He made his choice. It is his fault alone. It certain wasn't because God didn't desire him to come. Read Matt. 23:37. Does that sound like their not being saved had anything to do with God not desiring them to be saved? And then there is 1 Peter 3:9 and many others.

No, its because the Holy Spirit had already quickend your heart. Only one who already is a child of God CAN AND WILL respond in faith to the gospel.

So its theorically possible at some time to be a child of God without having faith yet?

This is what Jesus taught, "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. BUT YE BELIEVE NOT, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP, as I said unto you. MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, AND THEY FOLLOW ME" (John 10:25-27)

He is speaking to hardened Jews as clearly seen in John 12:39-41. They could NOT believe because they were not sheep of the first fold to be brought in by the shepherd. The first fold were the remnant of Israel who were called the "firstfruits" and "the first to hope in Christ." These were chosen and set apart by God to take the message of redemption to the world. Another flock was to be brought in as Christ explains.

Read Acts and you will see Peter preaching to the multitudes. The same multitudes, according to Peters words, that crucified Jesus. Look at how many of them believed. Hundreds. You don't think any of those people were in Jesus' audience in John when he made that statement? They couldn't believe because it had not been granted to them to believe, they were not of that first fold of sheep to be brought in. If you look at the analogy of the ingrafted branches in Romans 11 it parallels that of the sheep perfectly. You will see that Paul explains that the branches who have been cut off can be grafted back into the vine if they leave their unbelief, which according to Paul in verse 14 was a real possiblity. How can Jesus be non-elect reprobates when it is possible that they still could be saved?

PS- Lord willing I hope to get replies back to your prior posts shortly...im falling a bit behind lol! Have a good weekend and a good service on Sunday.

No problem. You too. Blessings.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BrotherJoe:
However, the idea that we produce the faith by ourselves after hearing the gospel goes against scripture. Ephesians 2:8 states we are, "saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

We don't produce the faith by ourselves. The gospel produces the faith within us. The truth will set you free.

If the gospel produces faith, then all who hear the gospel would believe it, but clearly this isnt the case, correct?

Incorrect. The gospel produces what is needed for faith. It produces truth. It is man who must choose whether or not to acknowledge what he knows to be true or to reject it. Read back through Romans 1 and you will see that the people knew God. The "clearly saw and understood" the divine attributes and eternal nature of God, but THEY REFUSED TO ACKNOWLEDGE HIM AS GOD. They knew the truth. They had everything they needed to believe, which is why Paul said they were without excuse. It is the same here. You want to remove the two critera Paul lays out for mankind to stand without an excuse by saying they can't understand or clearly see. But with the gospel they can. They choose not to. This is what Hebrews warns us against when it say, "Do not let your hearts grow hardened."

Let me explain it this way. Have you ever heard of someone with cancer just avoiding the issue. They avoid treatment because of the pain and cost. They rationalize and lie to themselves so much that they may even begin to believe the lie. That is what hardening is like. People who have heard the gospel know the truth. They understood it and clearly saw it for what it is, truth. But they lie to themselves, they avoid it because they like the sin too much and eventually their hearts become hard which is why they stand justly condemned. If you try and say they could NOT understand the gospel or see the truth of it then according to Paul's reasoning you have just given them a perfect defense on that day of judgement.

Why do some people have faith in the preached word of God and others dont? Because God has to grant the burdened sinner "eyes to see and ears to hear." Remember the Jews in Moses's day, they had Moses preaching them the very word of God, yet they had no faith. Why not? Scripture tells us why, "Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day." (see Deut 29:4)

These are passages in reference to the hardened Jews, who were hardened temporarily and for a divine purpose, but the Gentiles will listen (Acts 28:28) Don't apply passages having to do with a unique group of people at a particular to time to a doctrine of the nature of all men. It doesn't work.

Why did you respond to the gospel message in faith and yet your neighbor sitting in the pew next to you may not have? Surely it isnt because you are any better than he is.

No, its because he is worse than I am. I'm not better, he is worse. He had the truth and refused to acknowledge it as truth. He made his choice. It is his fault alone. It certain wasn't because God didn't desire him to come. Read Matt. 23:37. Does that sound like their not being saved had anything to do with God not desiring them to be saved? And then there is 1 Peter 3:9 and many others.

No, its because the Holy Spirit had already quickend your heart. Only one who already is a child of God CAN AND WILL respond in faith to the gospel.

So its theorically possible at some time to be a child of God without having faith yet?

This is what Jesus taught, "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. BUT YE BELIEVE NOT, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP, as I said unto you. MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, AND THEY FOLLOW ME" (John 10:25-27)

He is speaking to hardened Jews as clearly seen in John 12:39-41. They could NOT believe because they were not sheep of the first fold to be brought in by the shepherd. The first fold were the remnant of Israel who were called the "firstfruits" and "the first to hope in Christ." These were chosen and set apart by God to take the message of redemption to the world. Another flock was to be brought in as Christ explains.

Read Acts and you will see Peter preaching to the multitudes. The same multitudes, according to Peters words, that crucified Jesus. Look at how many of them believed. Hundreds. You don't think any of those people were in Jesus' audience in John when he made that statement? They couldn't believe because it had not been granted to them to believe, they were not of that first fold of sheep to be brought in. If you look at the analogy of the ingrafted branches in Romans 11 it parallels that of the sheep perfectly. You will see that Paul explains that the branches who have been cut off can be grafted back into the vine if they leave their unbelief, which according to Paul in verse 14 was a real possiblity. How can Jesus be non-elect reprobates when it is possible that they still could be saved?

PS- Lord willing I hope to get replies back to your prior posts shortly...im falling a bit behind lol! Have a good weekend and a good service on Sunday.

No problem. You too. Blessings. </font>[/QUOTE]