Regeneration ---- Then Faith

[Yelsew2]

Originally posted by Frogman:
[QB] If faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, and you are making that dependent upon reading the word, or hearing the preacher, then why do you deny the full inspiration of the word of God?

Such denial is not true of me! I simply said that the 66 or 72 or so books of the bible, depending on version are not the whole word of God. His creation fills in "the rest of the story". That is, there is more to God than the written word. But the written word reveals that Paul and the writer of Hebrews believed that salvation is through FAITH that comes by hearing the Word of God. With hearing meaning "understanding and believing" the word of God. Regeneration is the change in persuasion within the heart of man that comes from believing the word of God.

In your view, salvation is meted out to folks based on the fact they agree with you or the preacher or witness you associate with leading you to Christ.

How can you reconcile what is the word of God that is needed when you cannot even declare that word to be completely the word of God but filtered through the bias of men.

If you had not heard the Gospel, you would not be a believer! That gospel was delivered by God in human form, received by men, and written down by those men. I believe their testimony to be true, but not the whole of what Jesus taught. John the beloved apostle, concluded his Gospel by telling us that there was much more that could have been included, but that which was included is sufficient unto the salvation of man!

You were not regenerated into salvation first, then after that began hearing the word, you heard then believed unto salvation. If you say you were, then I am compelled to stop thinking of you as a brother, because you were not born again to the same gospel that I was born again to, which is contained in the Holy Bible!

You sound as if any moment you could regurgitate the denial of Karl Marx and tell me that religion is the opiate of the people in order that the upper class can remain in power by the promise of a future reward in another world.

Now that you mention it, religion is the opiate of the people. Christianity however, is not a religion, it is the lifestyle of those who have put their Faith in Jesus, the Christ! That is why the religions of the world hate Christianity! They do not have a LIVING God at the helm. Muslims have a dead mohammad, Buddhists have a dead Buddha, etc. But, Christians have a living Jesus who is the head of their FAITH!

Yelsew, you are dangerous, or perhaps better, dangerously inconsistent in your belief. I first thought it was in how you express your belief, but now I am not even sure what you believe.

you continually say faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God but you don't even know what that means or requires of the word of God and at the same time because of your misunderstanding of that you apply a filter through the mind of the writers on the authority of the Holy Spirit in recording Scripture.

I am completely consistant in my FAITH in Jesus, the Christ. My faith is His-story and I'm sticking to it!

You however, do not accept that the whole of creation as God's handiwork through which HE displays his strength, dimension, purpose, infinity, omniscience, Glory, Love, etc. The Written word is a part of the whole. It is the part that he gave to man who has difficulty understanding that which as beyond his own boundaries. "Consider the lillies of the field", the majesty and grandeur of the lofty mountains, the orbs that circle our tiny (by astronomer's estimations) burning sun, the molecules that make up life itself. All of it reveals something of God to the receptive heart.

 

[Frogman]

Do you believe a person can be regenerated and converted to belief through the witness of the creation of God?

If not, why not?

If so, why so, after all you count this as part of the word of God and therefore faith could definitely come by this portion of what you identify as the word.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew2]

The bible tells us what to believe and in whom to believe. The Creation shows us how small and insignificant man is, and how greate God is. Yet God who created all loves man so much that he gave his only begotten Son so that men, through belief in Him, could have everlasting life.

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Yelsew 2,

YOU SAID:It is not religion that saves, it is individual belief or the lack thereof that determines eternal destiny. Salvation comes to those who's faith endures to the end of this natural life. Not to those who gain faith for a while then lose it before dying from this natural life.

ME: So your asserting that perception determines reality? That if one believes Jesus died and rose again his sins were then paid for in Christ, but then, if he later no longer believes, his sins are no longer paid for. If this is true, this would mean Chrisianity teaches an individuals perception (belief) determines his reality (in this case wether Christ paid for his sins) and therefore Christianity would be asserting something we know to be a logical falsehood.

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Skandelon,

Hello.

YOU SAID: I believe the scipture clearly teaches that the life giving Spirit comes through faith. That is that faith is the means by which the Spirit comes. Therefore, faith must precede the Spirit which gives new life.

ME: This cant be true because the scriptures repeatedly speaks of us prior to becoming born again as being spiritually dead.

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1)

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ" (Ephesians 2:5)

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened" (Colossians 2:13)

Can a dead man do anythng? No, he must first have life. Likewise a spiritually dead man cant produce faith, thus God quickens us, THEN we can have faith and believe.

The Bible tells us that faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (see Galations 5:22), thus we must first have the tree (the Holy Spirit), in order to have the fruit that the tree alone can produce.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Yelsew2]

Brother Joe,

ME: So your asserting that perception determines reality? That if one believes Jesus died and rose again his sins were then paid for in Christ, but then, if he later no longer believes, his sins are no longer paid for. If this is true, this would mean Chrisianity teaches an individuals perception (belief) determines his reality (in this case wether Christ paid for his sins) and therefore Christianity would be asserting something we know to be a logical falsehood.

NO, that is not what I said. You are twisting and tangling! stop it!

God's Grace has been present with man for millenniums! It is constant, unchanging, and not transferable!

Man is ever changing because man has a "life cycle" starting from "the clean slate of infancy" ending in "death of the flesh". That death of the flesh is not the final curtain because there is judgment after the death of the flesh. Everyman's deeds are judged, then man is separated, the sheep from the goats. The sheep are led to Jesus where they will have everlasting life. The goats are cast into the lake of fire...the final death for all evil and unbelief. It is during the living phase of the human life cycle where Grace is, that man's perceptions are always changing. One day grace the next day no grace. Grace did not change, man did! One day on a peak the next in a valley, One day "feeling good" the next, "feeling bad". Man is what changes, God is constant! Immutable God remains the same yesterday, today and tomorrow! Jesus promised "I am with you always even to the end of the world" and "I will never leave you nor forsake you" Man did not make the same promise to Jesus, so it is man that is drawn closer and man that falls away!

For Clarity, the penalty for all the sins of the world, Past, present and future, has been paid ONCE-For-ALL. There will never be another "Atonement for sins". So sins are paid for regardless of the faith condition of the man. Sins can NEVER NOT BE paid for again! That leaves the eternal destiny of man entirely upon the foundation of faith and faith alone! Sins are not charged against the person, because the penalty for all sins has already been paid.

You are WRONG when you surmise that Christianity teaches human perception to be the determining factor for eternal life.

You are WRONG when you equate Atonement and SALVATION, they are not the same thing!

You are WRONG when you twist what I said! Grace received, is Grace perceived. ALL men everywhere have been under God's grace for millenniums, Grace has been a constant especially since Jesus walked among us. Man's perception of grace changes dependent upon man's "mood". If you are feeling good, "God's grace is being bestowed on you". "If you are feeling bad, God is withholding his grace"...simple perception.

Salvation is not based on Grace, but rather FAITH. For Abraham, it is not God's grace nor Abraham's grace that is counted to Abraham as Righteousness, it is Abraham's FAITH! Today it is not God's grace that saves, it is man's FAITH that make the man acceptable to God, just like Abraham!

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Yelsew2,

Good day and hello once again. Firstly, I am sorry if I misrepresented you, that was not my intent.

YOU (QUOTED):For Clarity, the penalty for all the sins of the world, Past, present and future, has been paid ONCE-For-ALL... That leaves the eternal destiny of man entirely upon the foundation of faith and faith alone!

ME: If God paid the penalty for sin for everyone through Christ's death, then how can he justly send ANYONE to Hell? Further, if my sins were paid for by Christ's sacrifice , why does it matter if I have faith in this or not, wouldnt it remain a historical fact either way?

Take care,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Yelsew2,

YOU(QUOTED) :You are WRONG when you surmise that Christianity teaches human perception to be the determining factor for eternal life. You are WRONG when you equate Atonement and SALVATION, they are not the same thing!

ME: I do not believe Christianity teaches human perception to determine eternal life. I do believe if one believes that the historical fact of Christ paying one's sin depends on that person believing that, then that person has a misguided understaning of Christianity that amounts to saying perception determines reality.

As for the atonement, I believe it is part of salvation, but isnt all of an individuals salvation. I believe Ssalvation began with the atonement, is applied with regeneration, continues through life with sanctification, and is completed at death via glorification. (Although I do believe in heaven we will still continue to be ever learning of God's awesome nature).

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Skandelon]

double post

[ March 07, 2004, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: Skandelon ]

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Yelsew2,

YOU (QUOTED)- Salvation is not based on Grace, but rather FAITH. For Abraham, it is not God's grace nor Abraham's grace that is counted to Abraham as Righteousness, it is Abraham's FAITH! Today it is not God's grace that saves, it is man's FAITH that make the man acceptable to God, just like Abraham!

ME-If you believe man's eternal salvation is based on faith and and NOT grace, then what happens to those individuals who are mentally incapacitated and incapable of understanding or comprehending the gospel, do they go to Hell? Also what about babies who die? What happens to those who have never heard the gospel?

Brother Joe


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[Skandelon]

Originally posted by BrotherJoe:

Can a dead man do anythng? No, he must first have life. Likewise a spiritually dead man cant produce faith, thus God quickens us, THEN we can have faith and believe.

Where does the scripture define being "spiritually dead" as being unable to respond in faith to the POWERFUL Holy Spirit wrought message of the cross???

It never does. You presume that "dead" means "total inability," but the Bible never draws that connection. In fact, the scripture says Christians are "dead to sin." By your defination of "dead" this must mean Christian are totally unable to sin. Is that what you believe?

The Bible tells us that faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (see Galations 5:22), thus we must first have the tree (the Holy Spirit), in order to have the fruit that the tree alone can produce.

Actually Galatians says "faithfulness" is a fruit of the Spirit. The initial belief (pisteo) in the gospel is different from the continued "faithfulness" or "longsuffering" (makrothumia)

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) patience, endurance, constancy, steadfastness, perseverance

2) patience, forbearance, longsuffering, slowness in avenging wrongs
For Synonyms see entry 5861
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 14
AV - longsuffering 12, patience 2; 14
Thayer's Lexicon

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Skandelon,

Good day.

YOU:Where does the scripture define being "spiritually dead" as being unable to respond in faith to the POWERFUL Holy Spirit wrought message of the cross???It never does.

ME: Yes, it does. Scripture declares that man on his own ability can never believe the gospel.

1)" the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God...the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:11,and 14)

2)"the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Romans 8:7)

3)"When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible" (Matthew 19:25-26)


***Scripture teaches man comes to understand and have faith in the gospel only when the Holy Spirit has entered him, makes him alive, and gives him the faith***

"For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH; AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.For we are his workmanship" (Ephesians 2:8-10)

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (1 Corinthians 2:12)

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Skandelon,


YOU: In fact, the scripture says Christians are "dead to sin." By your defination of "dead" this must mean Christian are totally unable to sin. Is that what you believe?

ME: No. I would only be forced to conclude this IF after regeneration the Christian only possesses the Holy Spirit and not their flesh body, but this isnt the case as we both know. This is what Paul is explaining in Romans 7:22-23 when he declares,
"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members"

Prior to regeneration man is spiritually dead and is therefor incabable of responding to Gods call. After, regeneration man now has his renewed mind from the Holy Spirit, but still lives in his flesh body, therefore sin will remain in part until total glorification. As St. Paul concluded, "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin"(Romans 7:25)

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Brother Joe;
If we are regenerated before we believe and it's up to God who hears the gospel and we only hear it after regeneration. Then why would we have to believe. If we have no choice in who hears the gospel and who doesn't why did Christ even mention preaching the gospel. Sounds as if belief isn't important at all. Can we actually get to heaven with out any conscience thought of it what so ever.
So weather we are saved or not isn't up to us. Then I would assume that there is no need for me to even worry about it at all. I'll either be saved or I won't be. Either way I'm not responsible for my sins because God made me the way I am. It's His fault that I sin.
I'm sorry but,it seems that if what you believe is truth. Then there is no need for a calvinist to argue about it at all. I know that if I believed that. I mean really believed that. Then I wouldn't even try to convince anyone of my belief at all, because it's all up to God. There is just no point to it at all to try and convince someone the doctrine of Calvinism. It's all cut and dry any way. You either are or aren't.
May God Bless You brother Joe
Mike

 

[Skandelon]

ME: Yes, it does. Scripture declares that man on his own ability can never believe the gospel.

1)" the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God...the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:11,and 14)

If you go back and read the entire context you will clearly see that Paul is speaking about knowing and understanding the "deep things of God," not the gospel. Also notice that just a few verses later in chapter 3 we see that the "brethern" in Corith could not receive these same "things" that the "natural" men couldn't recieve therefore we know he couldn't be referring to the gospel.

2)"the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Romans 8:7) We don't believe man can submit to the law. The law was fulfilled by Christ for that very reason. He subjected himself to the law in our place and we recieve him through FAITH. This verse says nothing about Faith or man's inability to believe the gospel message.

3)"When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible" (Matthew 19:25-26) Jesus also say, "With faith all things are possible."

We know that salvation is impossible for man alone. That is not a point of contention.


Scripture teaches man comes to understand and have faith in the gospel only when the Holy Spirit has entered him, makes him alive, and gives him the faith

"For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH; AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.For we are his workmanship" (Ephesians 2:8-10)

All good things come from God, no one denies that. Boasting is not about man's faith, its about those who think salvation is a work of the law. You can look at a similiar verse about boasting to see Paul's intent in Romans 3.

The ability to believe comes from God but you assume that only those who actually believe have that ability and that is just an assumption.

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (1 Corinthians 2:12)

And? I don't see how this verse could be interpreted to support your views.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by BrotherJoe:
ME: No. I would only be forced to conclude this IF after regeneration the Christian only possesses the Holy Spirit and not their flesh body, but this isnt the case as we both know. This is what Paul is explaining in Romans 7:22-23 when he declares,
"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members"

So are you saying that if the flesh didn't influence us we would be dead to sin, meaning "unable to sin?"

 

[Yelsew2]

Originally posted by BrotherJoe:
Brother Yelsew 2,

YOU SAID:It is not religion that saves, it is individual belief or the lack thereof that determines eternal destiny. Salvation comes to those who's faith endures to the end of this natural life. Not to those who gain faith for a while then lose it before dying from this natural life.

ME: So your asserting that perception determines reality? That if one believes Jesus died and rose again his sins were then paid for in Christ, but then, if he later no longer believes, his sins are no longer paid for. If this is true, this would mean Chrisianity teaches an individuals perception (belief) determines his reality (in this case wether Christ paid for his sins) and therefore Christianity would be asserting something we know to be a logical falsehood.

Brother Joe

Bro. Joe, do not missquote me! it does not become you! If you want to discuss this topic with me you will quote me accurately!

 

[Yelsew2]

***Scripture teaches man comes to understand and have faith in the gospel only when the Holy Spirit has entered him, makes him alive, and gives him the faith***

"For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH; AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship" (Ephesians 2:8-10)

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (1 Corinthians 2:12)

Brother Joe, Scripture does not teach what you say it does! The Gospel is the "milk of the word". The milk is easily taken in and understood by any and all who will hear the word of God. The meat of the word, that which deals with "things of the spirit" is understood better when the Holy Spirit illuminates the truth for us.

Ephesians 2:8-10. In this passage the subject is "we are SAVED". The Context is Ephesians 2:1-10. The theme of these ten verses is, "Salvation is the free gift of God!" Verse 9 says how we get salvation. I paraphrase: "It is while God's grace prevails that we are saved through our faith in God, and not of our selves salvation is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast". Now that is in keeping with verses 1 through 10. To say that "Grace is what saves" is to take the verse out of its context. Don't do that!

The Corinthians passage you extracted a thought from deals with wisdom, and differentiates between natural man's understanding, and Born Again man's wisdom giver which is the Spirit of God. But because you have taken verse 12 out of its context, you can put the slant on it that you wish to, and you'd be wrong!

1 Corinthians 2:1-16. Now when I came to you, brothers, I did not come with any brilliance of oratory or wise argument to announce to you the mystery of God. I was resolved that the only knowledge I would have while I was with you was knowledge of Jesus, and of him as the crucified Christ. I came among you in weakness, in fear and great trembling and what I spoke and proclaimed was not meant to convince by philosophical argument, but to demonstrate the convincing power of the Spirit, so that your faith should depend not on human wisdom but on the power of God.

6. But still, to those who have reached maturity, we do talk of a wisdom, not, it is true, a philosophy of this age or of the rulers of this age, who will not last long now. It is of the mysterious wisdom of God that we talk, the wisdom that was hidden, which God predestined to be for our glory before the ages began. None of the rulers of the age recognized it; for if they had recognized it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but it is as scripture says: What no eye has seen and no ear has heard, what the mind of man cannot visualize; all that God has prepared for those who love him; to us, though, God has given revelation through the Spirit, for the Spirit explores the depths of everything, even the depths of God.

11. After all, is there anyone who knows the qualities of anyone except his own spirit, within him; and in the same way, nobody knows the qualities of God except the Spirit of God. 12. Now, the Spirit we have received is not the spirit of the world but God's own Spirit, so that we may understand the lavish gifts God has given us. And these are what we speak of, not in the terms learnt from human philosophy, but in terms learnt from the Spirit, fitting spiritual language to spiritual things. The natural person has no room for the gifts of God's Spirit; to him they are folly; he cannot recognize them, because their value can be assessed only in the Spirit. The spiritual person, on the other hand, can assess the value of everything, and that person's value cannot be assessed by anybody else. 16. For: who has ever known the mind of the Lord? Who has ever been his adviser? But we are those who have the mind of Christ.

 

[Frogman]

Hello Brother Joe, Welcome to the C/A forum.

God Bless

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Mike,

Thanks for your reply and hope you had a good day.

YOU:If we are regenerated before we believe and it's up to God who hears the gospel and we only hear it after regeneration. Then why would we have to believe. If we have no choice in who hears the gospel and who doesn't why did Christ even mention preaching the gospel. Sounds as if belief isn't important at all.

ME: Brother Mike, dont you believe your trusting the gospel has had a positive effect or benefit for you on earth while you live your life down here?

Brother Mike, while believing the gospel doensnt in fact save anyone eternally, scripture teaches it does have an effect in saving one in his present condition on this earth.

Michael Gowens writes,"His purpose in reporting the good news of redemption accomplished is to call upon those he has redeemed to respond in grateful and believing obedience so that he might be glorified now. In other words, the gospel informs the mind of the objective fact of redemption so that the believer may render worship and service to God in this present life that he so justly deserves." (Gowens, Temporal Salvation)

This view that speaks of the "temporal" salvation brought by believing the gospel is repeated over and over in the Bible:

1) "Who gave himself for us that he might deliver us from this present evil world" (Galations 1:4)

2) "Save yourselves from this untoward generation" (Acts 2:40)

3)"and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God who lived and gave himself for me" (Galations 2:20)

4) "but goldiness is profitable unto all things, having the promise of the life that now is, and that which is to come" (1 Timothy 4:8)

5) "Who hath delivered us for so great a death and doth deliver us" (2 Corinthians 1:10)

Indeed, believing the gospel does save me, not from Hell, but from things on this earth such as sexual temptation, jealousy, anger, sel-righteousness, fear, anxiety, etc. (see Gowens, Temporal)

If you have the time, I recommend reading the following writing by Michael Gowen's called Temporal Salvation. It has helped my Biblical understanding of the gospel tremendously. www.sovgrace.net/TimeSalvation.pdf

God bless,

Brother Joe