Like I said, no one gets saved by accepting Jesus as Savior Unless we come to repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (acts 20:21) there is no salvation. If a person is not coming accepting the Lordship of Jesus they do not get saved.
Repentance, Faith, and Lordship salvation
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Judith, Jan 25, 2015.
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Show me in scripture where God accepts silent prayers. If we do not receive Jesus for who He is we do not get saved and He is Lord. Acts 20:21 -
Then he said in verse 28 "When I Am Lifted Up you will know that i am He."
Lifted up, Judith. The suffering Servant of Isaiah 53. The One who would SAVE His people from their sins. The One who provided REDEMPTION in His blood.
How in the world do you have faith is someone as Lord? That doesn't require faith, that takes works. MacArthur style heretical faith. One which poisons the gospel with human effort -
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1606083686/?tag=baptis04-20
http://wscal.edu/resource-center/resource/the-lordship-controversy
The first is a link to the book from the early '90s by Michael Horton and others addressing their concerns with John MacArthur's views.
The second is a 30 minute audio with Horton giving a summary of the topic.
Both are worth consideration regarding the issue, imo.
This article is a valid summary of some of the history that eventually led to the controversy, giving some background to what Lordship Theology would eventually respond to. Some of the players at hand may sound familiar...
http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/40/40-2/40-2-pp241-258_JETS.pdf
Blessings and prayers! -
I believe in Lordship Salvation as was defined by MacArthur in the following. In the interests of brevity I have deleted his remarks on "easy believes"!
Without getting into an argument related to a doctrine of Salvation Scripture tells us in John 3:16:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And then there are these:
Galatians 3:26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Acts 13:46-48
46. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
1 Corinthians 12:3. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. -
Please learn that Christ is Lord. You can't make him Lord of anything including yourself. He is Lord whether you like it or not.
That puts the current teaching of Lordship salvation in the category of erroneous doctrine. -
I've used this quote before:
My obedience then flows from position he has placed me in, as one who has been declared righteous, as one who is kept and has been delivered from darkness, as a child of God, as adopted into his family.
Lordship Salvation demands that a believer must show works in order to prove their position in Christ - it is the primary evidence of salvation.
Rob -
I will show you where He does.
1 Thessalonians 5:17, 18, NASB
17. Pray without ceasing.
18. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
Psalms 94:11, NASB The LORD knows the thoughts of man, That they are a mere breath.
Psalms 139:2, NASB Thou dost know when I sit down and when I rise up; Thou dost understand my thought from afar.
Psalms 139:23, NASB, Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me and know my anxious thoughts;
1 Samuel 1:12-15, NASB
12. Now it came about, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli was watching her mouth.
13. As for Hannah, she was speaking in her heart, only her lips were moving, but her voice was not heard. So Eli thought she was drunk.
14. Then Eli said to her, “How long will you make yourself drunk? Put away your wine from you.”
15. But Hannah answered and said, “No, my lord, I am a woman oppressed in spirit; I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but I have poured out my soul before the LORD.
Then answer the following question.
Luke 18:9-13, KJV
9. And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10. Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
The publican went to his house Justified. No mention of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. -
Repentance, Faith, and Lordship salvation
There are two views of salvation that seem in opposition. The first sees salvation as something accessible, so easy even a child or the old and infirm can do it, trusting in Jesus. These people see painting salvation as something rigorous may leave people less nimble, ardent, or skilled thinking they cannot approach Jesus.
The second group have those who see danger in a mistaken assumption of salvation. They stress Lordship, really repenting, and producing fruit as evidence of salvation status. Their view is also somewhat justified.
What these two views have in common is that they can be seen to place insufficient emphasis of God.
We know that God works in people to bring them to Jesus.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
We can surmise that the means that God uses to draw people to Jesus is a hunger for truth such that this hunger is only satisfied in him who is truth.
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
There have been and continue to be many "experts" who declare they have plumbed the mysteries of this calling and saving such that they can declare the criteria and process that must be followed for salvation. While often well intention and with sincere concern, these descriptions often cause as much trouble as they intend to prevent.
In Acts we have a description of people being told that they had put to death the Messiah a few weeks earlier. As they were convinced that this is what they had done they were mortified. They want to know what they should do and Peter tells them several things.
Acts 2:36-38 Assuredly therefore, let the whole house of Israel be knowing that God made Him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified. Now, having heard this, they were stung to the heart with poignant sorrow. And they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, What shall we do, men, brothers? And Peter said to them, Have a change of mind, that change of mind being accompanied by abhorrence of and sorrow for your deed, and let each one of you be baptized upon the ground of your confession of belief in the sum total of all that Jesus Christ is in His glorious Person, this baptismal testimony being in relation to the fact that your sins have been put away, and you shall receive the gratuitous gift of the Holy Spirit, - Weust
People will argue forever about where they see salvation occurring in these verses. I would suggest that the identification of the exact point and seeing the precise process is not as important as many people think. In fact, you could make a case that a preoccupation with the details of this process often becomes a stumbling block.
There is a subject of importance that could be called "assurance of salvation". Those who see a precise understanding of salvation often offer assurance based on the process that they have come to understand. Asking Jesus into your heart, being baptized, church membership, really repenting, and making Jesus Lord of your life have all been offered as measurement criteria to determine salvation.
There is an incident in the Corinthian church were Paul talks about what to do with someone who is called "brother" but whose actions deny his faith.
1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
No instruction is given to try to measure the man's true salvation status. Only his behavior is to be measured.
If a brother or sister in Christ wants assurance of their own salvation, I can point them to verses about drawing nearer to Jesus so that they can have assurance directly from him.
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. -
Timf, slight wrinkle in your proposal:
There wasn't anyone saved in Acts 2. They were already "saved" in the sense of being justified, prior to that day. They were OT believers who had their own Messiah crucified.
And Peter never promised them salvation, or election, or justification, or anything of the sort. He promised them the gift of the Holy Spirit. -
Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. -
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I am of the conclussion that many will argue themselves right into hell. :tear:
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The Scriptures teach against much of what you have posted here. -
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In the following passage presented initially with the above Scripture Hannah was praying silently. As is the case with many people their lips move when speaking silently, often some peoples lips move when they read. Eli thought Hannah was drunk but learned otherwise. Apparently Eli is much wiser than you, Ms. Judith. You are deliberately denying Scripture that proves you wrong.
OldRegular said: ↑1 Samuel 1:12-15, NASB
12. Now it came about, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli was watching her mouth.
13. As for Hannah, she was speaking in her heart, only her lips were moving, but her voice was not heard. So Eli thought she was drunk.
14. Then Eli said to her, “How long will you make yourself drunk? Put away your wine from you.”
15. But Hannah answered and said, “No, my lord, I am a woman oppressed in spirit; I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but I have poured out my soul before the LORD.Click to expand...
1 Samuel 1:9-11, KJV
9. So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the LORD.
10. And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the LORD, and wept sore.
11. And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.
Was Hannah's silent prayer answered?
1 Samuel 1:16-20, KJV
16. Count not thine handmaid for a daughter of Belial: for out of the abundance of my complaint and grief have I spoken hitherto.
17. Then Eli answered and said, Go in peace: and the God of Israel grant thee thy petition that thou hast asked of him.
18. And she said, Let thine handmaid find grace in thy sight. So the woman went her way, and did eat, and her countenance was no more sad.
19. And they rose up in the morning early, and worshipped before the LORD, and returned, and came to their house to Ramah: and Elkanah knew Hannah his wife; and the LORD remembered her.
20. Wherefore it came to pass, when the time was come about after Hannah had conceived, that she bare a son, and called his name Samuel, saying, Because I have asked him of the LORD.
So you see Ms. Judith you are incorrect. God not only heard Hannah's silent prayer but God answered Hannah's silent prayer. Your pride keeps you from admitting that you are wrong, and pride can be sinful, Ms. Judith!
Now let us consider the remainder of my response which you kissed off with the following.
Judith said: ↑Those passages do not teach silent prayer. If jesus is not receivesd as Lord He is not received.Click to expand...Originally Posted by Judith
If we do not receive Jesus for who He is we do not get saved and He is Lord. Acts 20:21Click to expand...
Then answer the following question.
Originally Posted by OldRegular
How can you know Him as Lord before you know Him? And you cannot Know Him until He saves you!Click to expand...
Luke 18:9-13, KJV
9. And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10. Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
The publican went to his house Justified. No mention of the Lordship of Jesus Christ.Click to expand...
Originally Posted by OldRegular
I am not in favor of young children joining the Church for a number of reasons. I suspect that a majority on this BB made a profession of Faith as a child. I would also bet that they had no idea of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Where do you fit in Judith?Click to expand...
I asked you another question on more than one occasion which you will not answer. I ask it again!
Originally Posted by OldRegular
How can you know Him as Lord before you know Him? And you cannot Know Him until He saves you!Click to expand...
Respectfully,
OldRegular
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