Response to: "I have become an agnostic" thread

I don't know what the significance of these assertions is, or even how they are supposed to be related.

 

Stop right there. Are you telling me that the manner in which I was created and brought into this world condemns me to eternity in hell by default?

Let's get someone to come out and say it proud. This is what we all believe yes?

 

And you look to the words of “wise” men for your answers instead God’s Word quoting the science of evolutionary psychology which you study in your wisdom instead of believing God’s Word that has explained and warned you to beware of this.

(Ecc 9:10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

(Ecc 9:11) I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift , nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

(Ecc 9:12) For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time , when it falleth suddenly upon them.


(Eph 4:14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

(Eph 4:15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

(Eph 4:16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

(Eph 4:17) This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

(Eph 4:18) Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:


(Rom 8:14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

(Rom 8:15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

(Rom 8:16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit , that we are the children of God:

(Rom 8:17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


Your deepest held convictions are worth what it the grave? So you’ve done well in your own eyes and own convictions, where will you go now? Maybe you don’t believe you have a soul so what does it matter? If you fear and resent the bondage of being His son, which has been explained (Romans 8:15) why should it matter where your inheritance lies? This terrible guilt that has been so well explained in your new science from men should have the satisfactory answers for you. It’s over right? Easier that way. Or have you built your own heaven to go to after the race? Again what does it matter? If you don’t believe in God and look to Him for the answers why should you believe in heaven anyway? Maybe these articles by the sleight of men you believe (that the Word warns, “whereby they lie in wait to deceive”) can more than His Word give you the answers. Why worry if you have your mind made up? (Romans 8:16) Could these deepest held convictions be a problem?

 

This is the greatest lie we teach ourselves. It's the belief that life provides concrete answers to the biggest questions. It does not. Your level of worry corresponds to the degree of comfort you find in your own reasoning. I feel much better now than I ever did as a Christian. It's not even a sense of pride either. I have no bitterness. No anger, no malice. No guilt. I have no reason to feel these things. The harshest teachings of Christianity are totally unreasonable and that's all there is to it. Until someone provides evidence to the contrary, I cannot believe contrary.

 

Travelsong,

I tried for 33 years to teach myself and man did I feel stupid when I found out God had all the answers waiting for me in the Instruction Book for Life and all I had to do was ask Him from my heart to guide me through it. I believe I will be given all the answers I need in this life and God will provide it; I sure know where my peace in this life came from.

The only one that can give you the evidence you want is God. If you have faith in Him and ask He will show you the truth. Every answer you need for your heart is there. I am very comfortable in His love, being humble not proud, I was a very angry person and He brought me peace, (which BTW I asked for and it floored me to have the feeling of peace come over me) I personally don’t feel guilt, only conviction and with that love. I’m forgiven and I know He understands that I’m not perfect. I’ve dealt with the harshness of fear by asking Him and He gave me the understanding of His love. You want “someone” to provide you evidence and you look for that in the wrong places; it wasn’t until I knew that “no one” including myself could help me that I ASKED Him. I cannot describe to you the overwhelming ways He touched my heart to show me the evidence of His truth through His great love. It is beyond words from my mouth; I think a circumcision of the heart is the best I can describe it.


(2Co 4:6) For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

(2Co 4:7) But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

Evidence to the contrary: The tomb of Jesus is empty. Why?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

I have to say that I very recently was on the same path as Travelsong; my journey was leading me away from God, but not in the same sense as Travelsong. I was raised a Baptist Fundamentalist and when God like Elvis has left the building you get Religion and that’s the rut I was stuck in for so long. The bondage of legalism and the hypocritical bigots that wanted all the power and basically I was taught Religion.

Today I’m a spirit renewed! I started attending a United Methodist Church and started praising God and glorifying Him. Celebrating Holy Communion every Sunday has been phenomenal. My family and I are involved in their Disciple programs and I’m learning more and more about God and His Son through studying the scriptures.

Travelsong: Have you thought about maybe trying a different denomination? I know it can be tough on a family, especially if you have kids, but it maybe worth a shot. If you were anything like me, then your minds been working overtime and maybe a change in scenery can help or maybe just take some time off, from this board and all the advice and just wait for the Lord. But at least stay in prayer, even if you're having doubts.

Peace...

 

I don't feel the need to be saved from all that negativity anymore. In fact, I feel less confused, ashamed, angry, bitter, spiteful, proud and just plain miserable now than I ever have in my life.

Of course the standard counter to this is that I have either been decieved by Satan or my own "wordly" reasoning.

I'm not buying it. Tell me How it's fair that Jesus can be the only way to heaven when so much of the world has lived without even the chance of attaining knowledge of him.

The standard response to this is usually a diversionary tactic, but sometimes it's a "That's just the way it is" or "I used to think about that kind of stuff but then I prayed alot and turned to the Bible and it all made sense again". Only the most liberal will go into a real rationalization such as "Well, God gives everyone a chance by revealing the holy spirit to different people at different times and infusing them with enough knowledge and faith to understand their predicament". The best are the Hyper Calvinists: "Hey, stinks to be you if God hasn't chosen you like he's chosen me."

Of course there are far more complications than that. Where does this sin come from? A sinful body that god imbues with a pure spirit? Vice versa? In what way does this make one accountable for his default "sinful state" at conception?

Why on earth is god conducting a giant personal improvement program where the stakes are very high? I mean, I understand god must be intense and everything but come on.

 

I feel much better now than I ever did as a Christian.
I don't feel the need to be saved from all that negativity anymore.
I feel less confused, ashamed, angry, bitter, spiteful, proud and just plain miserable now than I ever have in my life.
I have no reason to feel these things

Some people run their lives by their feelings (emotions). It ends up in disaster.
I prefer to run my life according to the Word of God.

Psalms 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

And exactly how is one saved? He feels the conviction of the holy spirit. He feels the burden of sin. He feels his utter depravity, helplessness and the just penalty for his state. He reaches out in faith and feels the forgiveness and saving grace of God.

I have never met anyone who has claimed to come to a purely intellectual knowledge of the gospel. In fact I have never heard a testimony of conversion that didn't stress the deep heartfelt emotion of the experience.

I think you're far from being in the position to accuse me of being irrational for having a strong desire to know and be completely honest with myself.

 

The experience of conviction of sin can only come once the intellectual truth of the gospel has been presented and accepted. That is what happend in Acts 2. "Men and brethren what shall we do?" came after Peter preached and expounded the Word, not before.

I trust the emotions that you feel will be of the Lord and not carnal. What you expressed (when I quoted you) were your carnal feelings. To paraphrase: 'Now that I have disposed of God, and can go my own way, and do my own thing, this is how I feel...

What you presented above is an entirely different story:

Those are your own words. For the record, have you done that?
DHK

 

Well yes, by Christian definition the emotions of anger and bitterness and so on are carnal. The irony is that I am less guided by them now. I said that I feel all of that kind of negativity less now, and overwhelmingly so.

Those are your own words. For the record, have you done that?
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely. During this long process of deconversion, I cried out to god many, many times. No matter how intellectually honest you are determined to be, deconversion from Christianity is a major paradigm shift.

See that big elephant that's been sitting all over this thread? A real intellectual pursuit of knowledge must address it. Darn tootin' the feelings are secondary.

 

I don't know what the significance of these assertions is, or even how they are supposed to be related. </font>[/QUOTE]My point is that we can know God and not know everything about Him simply because we see such a small part. God cannot be defined by our experience because we are finite and small compared to the magnitude of God.

To say one is agnostic is to say that on the basis of such a small experience and not from God's persepective. If you try to piece together all of scripture and try to figure out how everything works you will come up short and not even come close to understanding how God works. God far exceeds our comprehension and ability to understand.

 

If you have ever been in a serious earthquake or tornado I suspect you would feel differently.

There can be no good without evil. There can also be no evil without good. They must coexist to know one or the other. You cannot know waht evil is unless you know what good loks like.

It's like the peole who grow up in a polygamist community and think it is right. They do not know until they see the world outside of their little community.

 

This is a variation of "His ways are higher than our ways."

When you give god reasons for his actions, he ceases to exist. The explanations to the deepest questions must be so complicated that my tiny little mind could never comprehend them. The logic runs fulls circle and god stays completely locked in the center.

Translation: Surrender reason, choose blind faith. Accept that out there somewhere is a very good reason for why god appears evil, ambivalent or just plain indifferent.

OR Understand that people do the best they can given their environment. If there is a system of punishment and reward beyond the grave, it should be based on how you've lived your life given your resources. A god of anything less fair than that wouldn't get my acknowledgement if he came down and appeared to me.

 

If you have ever been in a serious earthquake or tornado I suspect you would feel differently. </font>[/QUOTE]Once I watched a supervisor at work get gunned down right in from me. Then I ran from a hail of bullets. Does that count?

So God can't exist without evil?

Why and why?

So then for them it isn't wrong is it?

 

Travalsong, it's been weeks now since you "came out of the closet" and mentioned you are an agnostic. Just what is it that you are looking for on the BB? Are you trying to convince others to turn away from God, or are you looking to discover the truth and be "talked out of" being agnostic? You seem to have your mind set by your posts. I'm just curious.

 

Aren't all minds set in their own way? I am open to the truth, whatever that may be, and no matter how ugly it appears. You?

 

I have found the truth. Are you implying, then, that your new view of God can be false? If this is the case, I say praise God. What exactly is it that you look for on a Christian message board which goes against what you now believe? I just do not see too many people on here who have a total disdain for God participating on this kind of board.

 

And as to why I am here: At first I started the thread to reach anyone else who might be going through similar things. Two minds gaining knowledge are better than one.

After leaving the thread for a few days I realized it wasn't fair to myself or anyone else in the Christian community not to at least offer my reasoning. You are more than welcome to walk me through the logic of the objections I've been raising.