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Rev. 9:10: Historical Facts vs. Futurist Fiction

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Apr 9, 2021.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Full blown view is heresy!
     
  2. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    Many Christians - including a lot of Partial Preterists - hold that view full Preterism is heresy. Personally, I think it's unorthodox, but not heretical in the sense of denying the Trinity or the divinity of Christ.
     
  3. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    The flip side of that also holds. No amount of rhetoric can change these events to future fulfillment, nor change any past fulfilled events. Just a circular argument.
     
  4. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Not at all. SCRIPTURE says they'll happen, so they will, as Scripture is always right. History says they haven't yet happened, so they're still future.

    Again, no amount of rhetoric, posturing, or guessing can overcome the FACT that the eschatological prophecies have NOT yet come to pass.
     
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  5. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    That's the point - Scripture said they would happen, and history shows they have. Repeating the same points over and over doesn't change anything. Neither of us are saying anything we haven't said before. Shall we just accept the fact that neither of us will change the other's mind?
     
  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.
    For all here to note that @Lodic is an Orthodox Preterist.
     
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  8. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    As I've said before, the Beast was Nero/Rome; False Prophet was apostate Israel; the Mark of the Beast may not have been a literal mark, just as those marked for Christ don't have a literal mark.

    All life in the sea dying and the waters becoming red with blood both refer to the massive slaughter of the Jewish Wars ending in 70 A.D. Since the FP is Apostate Israel, they were in Jerusalem in 70. As a student of history, you know that Titus led the Roman army into Jerusalem.

    Since I've repeated things that I've told you before, I'm sure you will reply with things you've told me before. Our discussion just recycles the same points over and over.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Can you give the steps of understanding, step by step, how you came to your understanding? [FYI, I hold a post trib pre mill futurist view point.]
     
  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    No; Nero failed tp meet many of the Scriptural criteria for the beast, even though he was a bad guy. For instence, he was ELECTED caesar by the Senate; he did not overthrow 3 other rulers to gain his office. Nor was he ever in Jerusalem, let alone entered the temple. And clearly the beast will be a man.

    No; clearly he will be a man. How could ALL of apostate Israel enter the temple ????????????
    No; it'll be literal. Nothing figurative/symbolic can go onto one's hand or forehead.

    A pure stretch! However, iron won't stretch too far. This is pure guesswork.

    ALL of apostate Israel couldn't even fit into Jerusalem!

    Not trying to be smart-aleck, but all you've offered is fantasy, imagination, & guesswork!
    I provided facts.

    You're correct; it'll take the HOLY SPIRIT to cause you to see the truth. But perhaps I can help others not to fall for that fairy tale of a false doctrine.
     
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  11. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    I was just thinking of a scene from "The Princess Bride". Indigo: "Let me explain. No, it's too much. Let me sum up." I adopted the Preterist view after a detailed study of the Olivet Discourse. I never bought into the Dispensational view, but I became disillusioned with the futurist view during the Persian Gulf War, when things really happen as I expected.

    I ran across some articles on the American Vision website that I found intriguing. "Last Days Madness" by Gary DeMar was the first book I read with the Preterist perspective. DeMar made lots of sense, so I read more books from him, Ken Gentry, R.C. Sproul, and others.

    Partial Preterism answers all the questions about the End Times that the "futurist" left unanswered. What had been confusing has become clear.
     
  12. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    To hold that Nero/Rome was the beast and apostate Israel was the false prophet is to so distort the language of Scripture as to make language meaningless.
     
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  13. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    The Holy Spirit has led me to the true views of the "End Times". That's why I am a Partial Preterist.

    I'm don't have time to rehash the same arguments now. It doesn't matter what I say though. You have your views, I have mine, and time will tell.
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well, what? I hold that there are to be only two appearings of our Lord Jesus Christ, Hebrews 9:28, Titus 2:13.
     
    #74 37818, Apr 17, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
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  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Just study history more-closely, with a Bible handy while you do. See where the empires fell, as shown to Daniel. None of them fell overnight. The Medo-Persian empire at first was dominated by the Medes til Cyrus The Great became king of the Persians, & forced the king of the Medes out, then the Persians became dominant. Cyrus forced Nabonidas, king of Babylon to surrender, & made Babylon a province pf Persia, as it grew less-important & powerful.

    In 330 BC, Alexander The Great defeated the army of Darius & pretty well ended the Persian empire, as its non-Persian or Mede peoples formed their own nations without a persian leader & army to cpntrol them, & Alexander & his successors ruled them loosely. And we all know that when Alex died, his empire was split by his 4 generals into 4 separate empires. Scripture deals only with the Seleucid & Ptolemaic empires. Then, of course, as the Roman empire grew, it absorbed the old empires of Alex's generals. The last sovereign nation among them to fall to the Romans was Cleopatra's Egypt in 31 BC.

    So, Danny's vision LITERALLY came to pass, over the course of some 500 years. There's absolutely NO REASON to believe the rest won't come to pass JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

    The beast will be a prince of the people daniel was told would destroy Jerusalem.Since J was already destroyed at the time, this could only have been future in Danny's time, & the only other time it ws destroyed after then was in 70 AD by the Romans. And Titus did NOT rule in J nor enter the temple, so he was not the beast. After sacking J, the Roman army returned home with Titus, to great honor.("Titus' arch" still stands in Rome today !)

    DeMar, Gentry, Preston, Sproul, & other pret authors are all charlatans, out to sell boox, truth be dipped. People, please don't believe their garbage, as Scripture & history together prove it to be garbage!
     
  16. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Are you sure it was the HOLY Spirit?????????????(Lying demons are spirits, too!)

    He doesn't lie, & preterism is a whole pack of lies. You cannot prove a single one of its points, while I can easily & quickly DISprove any of them.
     
  17. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. The unanswered questions were more about how the prophecies play out. When looking at the prophecies as fulfilled in 67-70 A.D., the puzzle came together.
     
  18. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how that is distorting the language of Scripture. Most Christians agree that Revelation uses a lot of symbolism. Just a matter of proper interpretation.
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I honestly do not see Jesus answering any were in Matthew 24 Jesus teaching Matthew 24:2 re:70AD having to do with His coming Matthew 24:27-31, etc.
     
  20. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    Oddly enough, I used to be guilty of "newspaper eiseges", reading prophecies in the news because that's what I was looking for. Now I carefully study Scripture and see where prophecies have been fulfilled in history. That is, it's because I understand the Bible and history that I have a Preterist view.
    DeMar, etc al understand the proper view of eschatology.
     
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